The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

Andrew, I counted 35 who said the last shots were closer but that is not specific of course. 22 of those used terms like "In rapid succession" or "almost at the same time". That is significant.

The reverberation in Dealey Plaza caused by the reflection of sound from the TSBD, the buildings along Houston and the concrete structures in the plaza had the effect of sustaining the sound after the gun fired. There was also a large building south of Dealey Plaza (Post office) that sound would have reflected from and sustained the sound for some time afterward. The distance from the TSBD to the Post Office was about 600 feet so the first reflection would have taken more than a second to return. Mary Woodward described the last two shots as follows:

"“The second two shots were immediate --- it was almost as if one were an echo of the other -- they came so quickly. The sound of one did not cease until the second shot.” … “and then the third shot came very, very quickly, on top of the second one”

It would have been interesting if someone had tested the reverberation to see how long it would take for the sound to die out. 

Several witnesses did describe the time interval as more than a second:Jackson: 2 seconds; Emmett Hudson: "'just about as fast as you could expect a man to operate a bolt action rifle"; Yarborough: 1.5 seconds; "not more than 2 seconds": Roger Craig.

One thing is certain: they were not describing a 5 second pause between 2 and 3.

[Andrew Mason]

Here is a similar angled view (of a re-enactment) which appears to be just a few feet further down Elm Street (I don't remember for sure which exact Z-rame this re-enactment is portraying):

Anyone can put a straight line between JFK's neck and JBC's right armpit. The difficulty is aligning it with a straight line from the SN. That photo does not do that. Neither did Arlen Specter's pointer.

And this is an overhead view of the same position:

This is a much better attempt.  Presumably the laser shows the path from the SN although I am not sure how that is done. The laser beam normally does not show up passing through air.  But even this shows that JBC's right armpit had to be to the left of the middle of the jump seat.  I don't see where that was ever the case.

I believe that the reason we apparently don't see JBC's right shoulder in the Betzner photo is that the shot actually occurred a little later than when that photo was taken. JBC said that he turned to look at JFK and was in the middle of turning the other way (to look over his left shoulder for JFK) when he was hit (in the back). So JBC was moving during that time period, not stationary.

You can't prove that the second shot occurred at z223 or so by using as a premise that that is when the second shot occurred, which is what you are doing.

A look at the Z-186 frame shows that JBC was turned to his right, I believe that that was approximately when he was turned as far right as he could. And his right shoulder was a little further towards the centerline of the limo than it was after he started to turn the other way. A look at the Z-frames that follow Z-186 confirms that JBC was turning back the other way.

JBC maintained that right turned posture until he disappeared behind the Stemmons sign. When he emerges in z223 we can see that he is turned facing forward. If that is where you think he was hit, his right shoulder is certainly not left of the middle of the jump seat.

Another point is: If you want to rely on witness testimony for the timing of this shot, then how the heck can you ignore the fact that JBC said that he felt the shot hit his back. If he had been shot in the left leg a few seconds before he was hit in the back (as you suggest), why wouldn't he have said that be the pain he said he felt when he was shot was in his left thigh?

He NEVER felt the thigh wound or the wrist wound.  Extremity wounds are not always felt.  Bullets hit and destroy tissue and nerves so you don't feel them.  What you feel is the loss of function resulting from the wound.  I have never been shot. I am just going by what wound experts and people who have been shot say they experienced.  Even JBC said he felt no pain from the bullet passing through his chest but he felt the impact. 

[Charles Collins]

Anyone can put a straight line between JFK's neck and JBC's right armpit. The difficulty is aligning it with a straight line from the SN. That photo does not do that. Neither did Arlen Specter's pointer.
This is a much better attempt.  Presumably the laser shows the path from the SN although I am not sure how that is done. The laser beam normally does not show up passing through air.  But even this shows that JBC's right armpit had to be to the left of the middle of the jump seat.  I don't see where that was ever the case.
You can't prove that the second shot occurred at z223 or so by using as a premise that that is when the second shot occurred, which is what you are doing.
JBC maintained that right turned posture until he disappeared behind the Stemmons sign. When he emerges in z223 we can see that he is turned facing forward. If that is where you think he was hit, his right shoulder is certainly not left of the middle of the jump seat.
He NEVER felt the thigh wound or the wrist wound.  Extremity wounds are not always felt.  Bullets hit and destroy tissue and nerves so you don't feel them.  What you feel is the loss of function resulting from the wound.  I have never been shot. I am just going by what wound experts and people who have been shot say they experienced.  Even JBC said he felt no pain from the bullet passing through his chest but he felt the impact.

But even this shows that JBC's right armpit had to be to the left of the middle of the jump seat.  I don't see where that was ever the case.

It is most clearly the case in Z186. I have added a red line to both of these images. In the top view it crosses both the gap between the front and rear doors and a point about 1/4 of the way between the upright supports of the handhold on the left rear of the trunk. In the z186 frame it does the same. Now, if you cannot see JBC is to the left of the middle of the seat then you are being blinded by your own confirmation bias.

[John Tonkovich]

So, while out on a parade run, JFK sits far right in his seat, maybe to be closer and visible to the public?, while Connally... sits far left, to...uh, be away from the public? because...??

[Dan O'meara]

As far as the possibility of a shot at 190, it's not just the blur analysis and eyewitness evidence that places the first shot at this time, but the photo analysis. One of the most overlooked facts about the case is that the HSCA photography panel concluded a shot rang out before Kennedy went behind the sign...and that they came to this conclusion before the acoustics panel came to their conclusion a shot at Z-190 was probable.

Dave Powers said Kennedy jerked off the side of the car when hit. Kennedy's head and arm movements as he heads behind the sign suggest he was hit at this time. His movements at this time certainly don't look natural. And the failure of Dale Myers etc to acknowledge this and to insist he continued calmly waving at this time is perplexing, to say the least.

The first point is about Jiggle/blur analysis of the Z-film.
You would not disagree that only a very loud noise would cause such blur/jiggle.
You would also agree that, according to the vast majority of ear-witnesses, only three clearly audible shots rang out.
But would you agree that more than three instances of blur/jiggle during the Z-film makes the use of this analysis to determine when shots occurred completely redundant?
Another observation of the HCSA panel was that JFK 'froze' before going behind the Stemmons sign.
This is not shown in the Z-film.
The 'biggest' revelation was that JFK made a startling head turn to his left just before passing behind the Stemmons sign.
This has been completely refuted in this thread. JFK made no such head turn.
This leaves you with witnesses like Willis and Powers but I will hold up witnesses like Brandt and Templin who are absolutely adamant the first shot hit Kennedy after the limo had passed their position.
This rules out a first shot at z190 as does JFK's reaction to being shot as seen in the Z-film.

[Charles Collins]

The first point is about Jiggle/blur analysis of the Z-film.
You would not disagree that only a very loud noise would cause such blur/jiggle.
You would also agree that, according to the vast majority of ear-witnesses, only three clearly audible shots rang out.
But would you agree that more than three instances of blur/jiggle during the Z-film makes the use of this analysis to determine when shots occurred completely redundant?
Another observation of the HCSA panel was that JFK 'froze' before going behind the Stemmons sign.
This is not shown in the Z-film.
The 'biggest' revelation was that JFK made a startling head turn to his left just before passing behind the Stemmons sign.
This has been completely refuted in this thread. JFK made no such head turn.
This leaves you with witnesses like Willis and Powers but I will hold up witnesses like Brandt and Templin who are absolutely adamant the first shot hit Kennedy after the limo had passed their position.
This rules out a first shot at z190 as does JFK's reaction to being shot as seen in the Z-film.

Dan, witness accounts will never cause visual evidence such as the Zapruder film to be ruled out. The opposite is going to happen every time.

[Dan O'meara]

Dan, witness accounts will never cause visual evidence such as the Zapruder film to be ruled out. The opposite is going to happen every time.

I couldn't agree more with you Charles, for me the Z-film is the benchmark against which witness evidence should be tested.
You're idea of a shot @ z130's has been utterly refuted in this thread using the Z-film but it seems to have made little difference to your point of view.