Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 9400 times)

Offline Chris Bristow

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2020, 02:15:54 AM »
We know Connolly said that he heard the shot and then tried to turn around to look at JFK. For the single bullet theory to be correct he would have looked around to the right before going behind the Stemmons sign. He also said that once shot he fell and was pulled almost immediately into his wife's lap.
The problem with his testimony is that he did a full turn around after frame 223. Before going behind the Stemmons sign he just glanced to his right but after frame 223 he made that full turn around and only after that did he fall into Nellie's lap. It seems like he was reacting to the throat shot not the earlier round that sounded like firecrackers. Of course twisting around to the right after losing 4 inches of rib it's hard to see. Holding onto your hat with a fractured wrist and then articulating that wrist into a bent position to fit your hat between the door and yourself it's also hard to see.

Offline John Tonkovich

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2020, 04:05:59 AM »
What z-frame corresponds to Connally being shot ?
Z312
Z350

Did you read his testimony at WC?
Why is he so apologetic?
Are you familiar with the West survey?
All available at the EF, under Purvis?
Apologies for citing the other " tv channel"; fyi, Tom Purvis also posted here, contributed to this site. Check with this site's owner about Mr. Purvis.

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2020, 04:21:44 AM »
Harold Norman, the closest ear witness right beneath the 6th floor SE window replicates the spacing of the 3  shots he heard on about 4 sec or less in every video review and never deviated from that perception even at the mock trial with Bugliosi v Spence

Also, Norman describes a very specific sequence: He heard the 1st shot and saw JFK slump. Then Norman heard 2 more shots very close together

So that cannot be a 1st shot “miss” before z223 If there were no more than 3 shots in total as most of the ear witness describe hearing

If it were a missed shot prior to z223 Norman would have described the sequence as “I heard 2 shots and then saw JFK slump and then I heard one more shot

This spacing of the shots by Norman is consistent with Lee Bowers (tower operator behind grassy knoll fence)spacing in less than 4 sec from the well known Mark Lane camera recorded interview with Bowers rapping his hand on the desk

There is  Charles Brehm’s odd lack of reaction ( he is still clapping his hands) as the JFK limo passes and after supposedly 2 shots fired already. Possibly because Brehm was a WW2 combat vet and desensitized to gunshots? IDK. Add to this that Brehm is one of a minority claiming to have heard a 3rd shot AFTER 313 !?

Charles Brahm’s very 1st immediate interview recorded is quite different than his laterFBI recorded statement.

Brehm apparently heard only TWO shots, the 1st shot he saw HIT JFk and JFKs hands at his throat and then Brehm heard a 2nd  shot which caused JFK to fall over in the lap of Jackie Kennedy

There is no mention by Brehm in this initial early interview ( his immediate impressions)  of having heard a 3rd shot, nor any reference to spacing of shots approximating “about as fast as could be fired with a bolt action rifle”

My impression of Brehm is that he was a patriotic American WW2 who has honorably served and that upon learning later   that the main suspect was Oswald , a former USMC vet and a defector to USSR  Brehm Was infuriated by such treachery and thus embellished his story to help the WC

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2020, 11:41:20 AM »
Z312
Z350

Did you read his testimony at WC?
Why is he so apologetic?
Are you familiar with the West survey?
All available at the EF, under Purvis?
Apologies for citing the other " tv channel"; fyi, Tom Purvis also posted here, contributed to this site. Check with this site's owner about Mr. Purvis.
Hi John, really confused by your response. Firstly, I am familiar with Connally's WC testimony and the West survey (through Tom Purvis on "the other channel"). I asked what z-frame corresponds to Connally being shot and you replied:
                                   Z312
                                   Z350
You seem to be implying Connally was shot in the back whilst lying on Nellie's lap. After the headshot JBC rolls to his left to reveal blood streaming down his back. By z245 Connally has already twisted in his seat so much it is impossible for him to be shot in the back from anywhere close to the TSBD and at no point after does he turn his back in a way that such a shot would be possible.
In his WC testimony Connally states he heares the shot, turns to look over his right shoulder then, as he is turning to look over his left he is shot. Zapruder shows nothing of the sort. Around z 160 he looks to his left then turns to his right looking at the people on the street. He never changes this position until he is shot at z223:



This is the first of the three shots assumed to be fired from the TSBD. As Zeon hints at, a number of witnesses see JFK slumping to his side after this first shot. None as certain as Carl Brandt:


https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/ea06nf0Ktgg

{click on Dave Reitzes)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 11:42:04 AM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Chris Bristow

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2020, 02:24:03 PM »
It's sort of bizarre how Connally's first reaction involves a violent jerk of his left shoulder and arm upwards.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 02:25:26 PM by Chris Bristow »

Offline Joffrey van de Wiel

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2020, 03:13:15 PM »
The HSCA determined that

- President Kennedy first showed a reaction to a "severe external stimulus" by Zapruder frame 207;
- Governor Connally first showed a reaction to a "severe external stimulus" by Zapruder frame 224;
- at least two shots, spaced approximately 6 seconds apart, were fired at the Presidential limousine.

QUOTE:

The first, missed shot.

The first reaction by any of the limousine occupants to a severe external stimulus begins to occur in the vicinity of Zapruder frames 162-167. At this time, Connally is looking to his left, when his head begins a rapid, sudden motion to the right. In quantitative terms, he turns his head approximately 60° to his right in one-ninth of a second (a rate equivalent to a 540° rotation per second). He pauses momentarily and then executes a further 30° turn to his right, within an eighteenth of a second (again, a rate equivalent to a 540° rotation per second). This initial rapid motion, in which Connally has apparently turned his head to look behind him, is accompanied during the next approximately 20 frames by a more gradual 60° shift to the right of his upper torso. Although it is apparent that none of the limousine occupants has been shot at the time that Connally initiates this movement, the Panel considers these actions to be particularly significant because they were consistent with his Warren Commission testimony that he turned in response to having heard the first shot and was struck almost immediately afterwards.

During the period of Connally's initial rapid movement, however, no one else shows a comparable reaction. The President does not appear to react to anything unusual prior to Zapruder frame 190. The Panel observed, however, that at approximately this time, a young girl who had been running across the grass, beyond the far curb of the street where the limousine was traveling, suddenly began to stop and turn sharply to her right, looking up the street in a direction behind the limousine.


The second shot.

At approximately Zapruder frame 200, Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe external stimulus. By the time he emerges from behind the sign at Zapruder frame 225, the President makes a clutching motion with his hands toward his neck, indicating clearly that he has been shot. Connally's movements as he emerges from behind the sign at Zapruder frames 222-224 also indicate that he is reacting to a severe external stimulus. He appears to be frowning, and there is a distinct, stiffening of his shoulders and upper trunk. Then there is a radical change in his facial expression, and rapid changes begin to occur in the orientation of his head.

The third shot.

At frame 313, approximately 6 seconds (based on the 18.3 frames per second exposure rate of the Zapruder camera) after the President disappears behind the sign, his head is seen exploding from the impact of a bullet.

Source HSCA report volume 6 page 17 & 18.




Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2020, 04:25:33 PM »
It's sort of bizarre how Connally's first reaction involves a violent jerk of his left shoulder and arm upwards.
Also note Connally's wrist at the end of the clip posted above. In my opinion it is at a very unnatural angle. Much is made of Connally holding on to his hat but I suspect he couldn't let go of it if he wanted to.

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2020, 05:02:27 PM »
The HSCA determined that

- President Kennedy first showed a reaction to a "severe external stimulus" by Zapruder frame 207;
- Governor Connally first showed a reaction to a "severe external stimulus" by Zapruder frame 224;
- at least two shots, spaced approximately 6 seconds apart, were fired at the Presidential limousine.

QUOTE:

The first, missed shot.

The first reaction by any of the limousine occupants to a severe external stimulus begins to occur in the vicinity of Zapruder frames 162-167. At this time, Connally is looking to his left, when his head begins a rapid, sudden motion to the right. In quantitative terms, he turns his head approximately 60° to his right in one-ninth of a second (a rate equivalent to a 540° rotation per second). He pauses momentarily and then executes a further 30° turn to his right, within an eighteenth of a second (again, a rate equivalent to a 540° rotation per second). This initial rapid motion, in which Connally has apparently turned his head to look behind him, is accompanied during the next approximately 20 frames by a more gradual 60° shift to the right of his upper torso. Although it is apparent that none of the limousine occupants has been shot at the time that Connally initiates this movement, the Panel considers these actions to be particularly significant because they were consistent with his Warren Commission testimony that he turned in response to having heard the first shot and was struck almost immediately afterwards.

During the period of Connally's initial rapid movement, however, no one else shows a comparable reaction. The President does not appear to react to anything unusual prior to Zapruder frame 190. The Panel observed, however, that at approximately this time, a young girl who had been running across the grass, beyond the far curb of the street where the limousine was traveling, suddenly began to stop and turn sharply to her right, looking up the street in a direction behind the limousine.


The second shot.

At approximately Zapruder frame 200, Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe external stimulus. By the time he emerges from behind the sign at Zapruder frame 225, the President makes a clutching motion with his hands toward his neck, indicating clearly that he has been shot. Connally's movements as he emerges from behind the sign at Zapruder frames 222-224 also indicate that he is reacting to a severe external stimulus. He appears to be frowning, and there is a distinct, stiffening of his shoulders and upper trunk. Then there is a radical change in his facial expression, and rapid changes begin to occur in the orientation of his head.

The third shot.

At frame 313, approximately 6 seconds (based on the 18.3 frames per second exposure rate of the Zapruder camera) after the President disappears behind the sign, his head is seen exploding from the impact of a bullet.

Source HSCA report volume 6 page 17 & 18.

As for the first shot I refer you to the opening post of this thread. Agents Hickey, Landis and Ready testify that they reacted immediately to the first shot. The Zapruder footage in the first post focuses on the agents from z133 to z207. At no point do they show any meaningful reaction as described in their testimonies. According to this testimonial/video evidence the first shot did not take place before z207.
As for the second shot (somewhere between z200 and z207?), I find it hard to accept that JFK was shot, then his hands fly up to his throat almost a whole second later. To me this doesn't seem realistic. Also, I just don't see JFK reacting 'to a severe external stimulus'. The clip below is a close-up of JFK from z160-z207. I see him looking towards the people lined up on the right as he waves at them. He stops waving and looks forward as his arm moves down to its resting position. I don't see a 'freeze' or any sudden reaction.



Finally, the 'shot pattern' described in the HCSA report is nothing like that desribed by so many witnesses - shot, pause, two shots closer together.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 05:11:26 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline John Tonkovich

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2020, 05:37:46 PM »
Hi John, really confused by your response. Firstly, I am familiar with Connally's WC testimony and the West survey (through Tom Purvis on "the other channel"). I asked what z-frame corresponds to Connally being shot and you replied:
                                   Z312
                                   Z350
You seem to be implying Connally was shot in the back whilst lying on Nellie's lap. After the headshot JBC rolls to his left to reveal blood streaming down his back. By z245 Connally has already twisted in his seat so much it is impossible for him to be shot in the back from anywhere close to the TSBD and at no point after does he turn his back in a way that such a shot would be possible.
In his WC testimony Connally states he heares the shot, turns to look over his right shoulder then, as he is turning to look over his left he is shot. Zapruder shows nothing of the sort. Around z 160 he looks to his left then turns to his right looking at the people on the street. He never changes this position until he is shot at z223:



This is the first of the three shots assumed to be fired from the TSBD. As Zeon hints at, a number of witnesses see JFK slumping to his side after this first shot. None as certain as Carl Brandt:


https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/ea06nf0Ktgg

{click on Dave Reitzes)
Connally is upright at z275
And looking at Kennedy.
Where is this blood on Connally's back you speak of?
Z frames?
( I don't know how you can claim to see that kind of detail in the Zfilm)

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2020, 07:34:40 PM »
Connally is upright at z275
And looking at Kennedy.
Where is this blood on Connally's back you speak of?
Z frames?
( I don't know how you can claim to see that kind of detail in the Zfilm)

The clip below is from z323 to z354. It shows JBC rolling to his left after the headshot. Towards the end of the clip (approx z350-354) there appears to be "blood" near the top of his armpit area (IMO)



I agree JBC is sat up looking at Kennedy at z275 but JFK is sat up as well and there is no question he's been shot. For me the clip in the previous post shows both men reacting in an extreme way. In Zapruder, just before they pass behind the Stemmons sign JBC is calmly scanning the crowd to his right. As he emerges from behind the sign he is exactly the same (z223), he then suddenly starts 'thrashing around'.
As the Z-film rolls on JBC stops thrashing, twists in his seat to face JFK then "swoons" into Nellies lap. IMO the fact he kind of collapses into Nellies lap is a strong indication he has already been shot.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 07:40:42 AM by Dan O'meara »

 

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