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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 127665 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1064 on: March 24, 2023, 03:50:23 PM »
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I must have accidentally posted while I was just starting my response.  Sorry about that!
I've discovered a way in which we are the same, yet opposite...

I am not "suggesting" the first shot occurred at z222/z223.
I have provided a mountain of evidence in this thread demonstrating that it is indeed the case.
I became interested in the JFK case during the first lockdown after randomly coming across Ant Davison's version of the Zapruder film.
It's quite a stunning thing. I watched over and over again on a very large screen at super slo-mo and couldn't help but notice both JFK and Connally violently reacting at exactly the same moment.
That is EXACTLY the problem. You looked at the zfilm and were convinced that both men were reacting to being shot (JFK in the neck and JBC in the back) at the same time.   That is a conclusion. That is based on an interpretation of what you think you are seeing.  And you did that before you reviewed the evidence as to what the witnesses said: 
  • JBC and Nellie were quite clear that JBC was not hit in the back by the first shot.  Your response: doesn't fit-ignore.
  • JBC said he turned around to see JFK after the first shot before he was hit in the back.  JBC turns from z230 to z270. There is no other time when JBC makes the slightest attempt to look at JFK.  Your response: doesn't fit-ignore.
  • Nellie said that she did not look back at JFK after her husband was hit in the back.  She is looking back at JFK from z255 or so to z270. Your response: doesn't fit-ignore.
  • Nellie said that JBC yelled "Oh No, No, No" before he was hit on the second shot. He appears to utter those words around z245. Your response: doesn't fit-ignore.
  • Phil Willis said he took his photo (z202) in reflexive response to hearing the first shot. Your response: doesn't fit-ignore.
  • Linda Willis said that JFK was between her and the Stemmons sign when the first shot occurred.  She was standing behind and just to the left of Phil Willis who took this photo at z202 when JFK had just passed between him and the Stemmons sign:


    So I suggest that I am being generous in saying that JFK was past the Stemmons sign from Linda's point of view by z205. Your response: doesn't fit-ignore.

Quote
[Note - I'm not referring to CE399 as the bullet. I don't believe that had anything to do with the actual shooting. I strongly suspect the bullet that exited Connaly's chest shattered on impact with his wrist bone and that the main bullet fragments found in the limo are the bullet in question.]
So what caused the thigh wound?  What caused the damage to the windshield? What caused the "concussion" effect that Greer said he sensed on the second shot just before he turned rearward for the first time?  What caused the injury to Tague, which he said occurred on the second shot?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 05:52:50 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1064 on: March 24, 2023, 03:50:23 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1065 on: March 24, 2023, 04:43:40 PM »
That is EXACTLY


I didn't know Connally's name at the time and had never heard of the Single Bullet Theory or Magic Bullet Theory.
Apart from the headshot, two things really stood out - how much the limo slowed down before the headshot and that both men reacted violently, presumably to being shot, at exactly the same moment.
It's so obvious I still can't believe people deny it. Rather than view the evidence with their own eyes they just hide behind arguments like "Oh, Specter just invented it because he had to".
In this thread I've presented an incredibly detailed analysis of the Z-film regarding this aspect and it has merely confirmed my original observation - both men were shot through, by the same bullet.
[Note - I'm not referring to CE399 as the bullet. I don't believe that had anything to do with the actual shooting. I strongly suspect the bullet that exited Connaly's chest shattered on impact with his wrist bone and that the main bullet fragments found in the limo are the bullet in question.]

Which brings us to how we're the same yet opposite.
Because I have allowed the evidence to inform how I look at this aspect of the case I find I'm the only CTer who accepts that both men were shot through at the same time, by the same bullet.
Because how you have allowed how you look at this aspect of the case to inform the evidence you choose, you find you are the only LNer who doesn't accept both men were shot through at the same time, by the same bullet.
Both of us standing alone in our respective camps.

"The Book of Fact Finding", by Andrew Mason.
 :D :D :D
The only book that consists solely of it's title and the name of it's author!!
That you have the audacity to write this sentence - "This means you must fit your findings with the rest of the evidence." - says it all.

The mass of evidence I have presented in this thread weighed against the testimony of Phil Willis. Really?
Phil Willis, the man who created Phil Willis Enterprises with the express intent of cashing in on the assassination by copyrighting his poorly taken photos. Photos he gave grandiose titles to in order to enhance their value. The man who had a financial incentive to convince everyone he had taken a photo of the moment of the first shot.
That Phil Willis?



The first shot took place just as the limo cleared the oak tree, just slightly further down the road than the white vehicle in the picture above.
Below is a pic from the moment the first shot occurred:



At the bottom of the view from the SN we can see the limo has just cleared the oak tree.
This is the moment the assassin "visualised" his first shot.
There was no need to fire through the oak tree.

Ermm...
Thanks for reproducing virtually my whole post except for the addition of the words "That is EXACTLY".
Not really sure what to think of your response.
It seems like you're having some kind of "moment".

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1066 on: March 24, 2023, 06:34:25 PM »
I've discovered a way in which we are the same, yet opposite...

I am not "suggesting" the first shot occurred at z222/z223.
I have provided a mountain of evidence in this thread demonstrating that it is indeed the case.
I became interested in the JFK case during the first lockdown after randomly coming across Ant Davison's version of the Zapruder film.
It's quite a stunning thing. I watched over and over again on a very large screen at super slo-mo and couldn't help but notice both JFK and Connally violently reacting at exactly the same moment.


I didn't know Connally's name at the time and had never heard of the Single Bullet Theory or Magic Bullet Theory.
Apart from the headshot, two things really stood out - how much the limo slowed down before the headshot and that both men reacted violently, presumably to being shot, at exactly the same moment.
It's so obvious I still can't believe people deny it. Rather than view the evidence with their own eyes they just hide behind arguments like "Oh, Specter just invented it because he had to".
In this thread I've presented an incredibly detailed analysis of the Z-film regarding this aspect and it has merely confirmed my original observation - both men were shot through, by the same bullet.
[Note - I'm not referring to CE399 as the bullet. I don't believe that had anything to do with the actual shooting. I strongly suspect the bullet that exited Connaly's chest shattered on impact with his wrist bone and that the main bullet fragments found in the limo are the bullet in question.]

Which brings us to how we're the same yet opposite.
Because I have allowed the evidence to inform how I look at this aspect of the case I find I'm the only CTer who accepts that both men were shot through at the same time, by the same bullet.
Because how you have allowed how you look at this aspect of the case to inform the evidence you choose, you find you are the only LNer who doesn't accept both men were shot through at the same time, by the same bullet.
Both of us standing alone in our respective camps.

"The Book of Fact Finding", by Andrew Mason.
 :D :D :D
The only book that consists solely of it's title and the name of it's author!!
That you have the audacity to write this sentence - "This means you must fit your findings with the rest of the evidence." - says it all.

The mass of evidence I have presented in this thread weighed against the testimony of Phil Willis. Really?
Phil Willis, the man who created Phil Willis Enterprises with the express intent of cashing in on the assassination by copyrighting his poorly taken photos. Photos he gave grandiose titles to in order to enhance their value. The man who had a financial incentive to convince everyone he had taken a photo of the moment of the first shot.
That Phil Willis?



The first shot took place just as the limo cleared the oak tree, just slightly further down the road than the white vehicle in the picture above.
Below is a pic from the moment the first shot occurred:



At the bottom of the view from the SN we can see the limo has just cleared the oak tree.
This is the moment the assassin "visualised" his first shot.
There was no need to fire through the oak tree.


So, is this photo depicting the position of the limo at approximately Z222?




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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1066 on: March 24, 2023, 06:34:25 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1067 on: March 24, 2023, 11:01:26 PM »

So, is this photo depicting the position of the limo at approximately Z222?



I don't know if it is or not. But the Secret Service reenactment car (a stock Lincoln Continental) is too far to camera-right in most of its run-throughs. Z213 and the Altgens Photo show the Presidential limousine drivers-side tire was a few inches away from one of the road stripes.

 

Mason uses a video clip from the Secret Service reenactment that's muddy (indistinct) and has the car away from the road stripe beside the driver. This creates the impression that Kennedy was to the right of the intervening foliage and exposed, and a shot could be made through the sparse foliage. Below is a clip from one of the run-throughs in which the SS car is near to the road stripe and thus more behind the foliage ...



This is more true to the May 1964 reenactment (although the "Kennedy" surrogate was a little higher and more inboard than JFK was in the Presidential limousine, factors the Commission took into account).



The better-resolution video and pictures show that Kennedy was not well-exposed to a shot at Z195, Mason's fantasy frame for a first shot (that, get this, left Kennedy's throat, went pass Connally's left side and nuzzled into his left thigh. LOL).

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1068 on: March 24, 2023, 11:28:36 PM »
I don't know if it is or not. But the Secret Service reenactment car (a stock Lincoln Continental) is too far to camera-right in most of its run-throughs. Z213 and the Altgens Photo show the Presidential limousine drivers-side tire was a few inches away from one of the road stripes.

 

Mason uses a video clip from the Secret Service reenactment that's muddy (indistinct) and has the car away from the road stripe beside the driver. This creates the impression that Kennedy was to the right of the intervening foliage and exposed, and a shot could be made through the sparse foliage. Below is a clip from one of the run-throughs in which the SS car is near to the road stripe and thus more behind the foliage ...



This is more true to the May 1964 reenactment (although the "Kennedy" surrogate was a little higher and more inboard than JFK was in the Presidential limousine, factors the Commission took into account).



The better-resolution video and pictures show that Kennedy was not well-exposed to a shot at Z195, Mason's fantasy frame for a first shot (that, get this, left Kennedy's throat, went pass Connally's left side and nuzzled into his left thigh. LOL).


Interesting, thanks. It appears to me that the photo in question might have been taken when the vehicle was stopped (due to the man in the road being very close to the car). And I thought it might be stopped there to document the location of the shot.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1068 on: March 24, 2023, 11:28:36 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1069 on: March 25, 2023, 11:54:50 AM »
After a closer look, it appears to me that the photo in question is depicting the limo position at about Z210. I drew some vertical lines and the JFK location in the limo lines up perfectly with a light pole on the south side of Commerce Street. A line drawn from the sniper's nest window to that pole intersects the path of the limo at about Z210 on Roberdeau's map. And, going from memory, I think at that point in time the FBI was indicating a shot fired about Z210. There is also a copy of the same image on Roberdeau's map with an X drawn in to depict the location of Z313. I have overlaid the two images and also have the vertical lines drawn in this image:




Edit: The May 1964 reenactment photos appear to show that the above photo’s position is slightly further along than the Z210 position, maybe Z212 to Z214. That I could use the Roberdeau map and get reasonably close is encouraging to me. 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2023, 11:58:29 PM by Charles Collins »

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1070 on: March 25, 2023, 09:01:51 PM »
I don't know if it is or not. But the Secret Service reenactment car (a stock Lincoln Continental) is too far to camera-right in most of its run-throughs. Z213 and the Altgens Photo show the Presidential limousine drivers-side tire was a few inches away from one of the road stripes.
JFK was in the clear at this point as shown in the Secret Service film from early December 1963:


If one looks at the position of the car in Willis #5:

it is about 1-1.5 feet right of the left lane marker.  A 1961 Lincoln Continental was 78.6 inches wide and the lanes were 12' or 144" wide. That leaves about 4-4.5 feet of lane to the right side.  I would suggest that the above photo from the Secret Service film has an accurate position of the car in the lane at that point. 

Quote
Mason uses a video clip from the Secret Service reenactment that's muddy (indistinct) and has the car away from the road stripe beside the driver. This creates the impression that Kennedy was to the right of the intervening foliage and exposed, and a shot could be made through the sparse foliage. Below is a clip from one of the run-throughs in which the SS car is near to the road stripe and thus more behind the foliage ...



This is more true to the May 1964 reenactment (although the "Kennedy" surrogate was a little higher and more inboard than JFK was in the Presidential limousine, factors the Commission took into account).



There are two big differences between the May 1964 and the December 1963 re-enactments.  The main difference is the tree foliage.  The other difference is the car height and the vertical position of JFK.  Both were more accurately depicted in the earlier reenactment.  The foliage is fuller and denser in 1964 than it was at the time of the assassination.  The photographers" (Betzner and Willis) provide z186 and z202 brackets for the time of the first shot.  The SS reenactment shows that the first shot at about z195 is consistent with those brackets. 

But even the May 1964 reenactment shows JFK to be clear of the tree (despite the longer and denser foliage) at z207:

In fact, the entire trunk of the car behind the JFK stand-in is visible.
Quote
The better-resolution video and pictures show that Kennedy was not well-exposed to a shot at Z195, Mason's fantasy frame for a first shot (that, get this, left Kennedy's throat, went pass Connally's left side and nuzzled into his left thigh. LOL).
The first shot JFK neck to JBC thigh "fantasy" is a much better fit to the trajectory, witness evidence, shot spacing evidence and the condition of CE399 than is the CE399 second shot SBT fantasy.


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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1070 on: March 25, 2023, 09:01:51 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1071 on: March 26, 2023, 02:46:41 AM »
I must have accidentally posted while I was just starting my response. Sorry about that!

Phew!
You had me worried there for a second.

Quote
That is EXACTLY the problem. You looked at the zfilm and were convinced that both men were reacting to being shot (JFK in the neck and JBC in the back) at the same time.   That is a conclusion. That is based on an interpretation of what you think you are seeing.

The mass of evidence I have presented in this thread confirm my original observation. That's it.
If the preponderance of evidence would have pointed elsewhere, then I would have a different point of view.
Unlike you, the evidence forms my opinion.

Quote
And you did that before you reviewed the evidence as to what the witnesses said: 
  • JBC and Nellie were quite clear that JBC was not hit in the back by the first shot.  Your response: doesn't fit-ignore.
  • JBC said he turned around to see JFK after the first shot before he was hit in the back.  JBC turns from z230 to z270. There is no other time when JBC makes the slightest attempt to look at JFK.  Your response: doesn't fit-ignore.
  • Nellie said that she did not look back at JFK after her husband was hit in the back.  She is looking back at JFK from z255 or so to z270. Your response: doesn't fit-ignore.
  • Nellie said that JBC yelled "Oh No, No, No" before he was hit on the second shot. He appears to utter those words around z245. Your response: doesn't fit-ignore.
  • Phil Willis said he took his photo (z202) in reflexive response to hearing the first shot. Your response: doesn't fit-ignore.
  • Linda Willis said that JFK was between her and the Stemmons sign when the first shot occurred.  She was standing behind and just to the left of Phil Willis who took this photo at z202 when JFK had just passed between him and the Stemmons sign:


    So I suggest that I am being generous in saying that JFK was past the Stemmons sign from Linda's point of view by z205. Your response: doesn't fit-ignore.

For you to suggest I have ignored any of these points is either profound memory loss or a downright lie.
The Connally's evidence has been dealt with in minute detail in this thread in discussions that you yourself took part in.
The reliability of the Willis evidence has also been dealt with in this thread (and not just in the post you were responding to).
You really have no shame.

Quote
So what caused the thigh wound?  What caused the damage to the windshield? What caused the "concussion" effect that Greer said he sensed on the second shot just before he turned rearward for the first time?  What caused the injury to Tague, which he said occurred on the second shot?

As I am convinced the bullet fragmented on contact with Connally's wrist, it can only have been a bullet fragment (or fragments) that caused Connally's thigh wound.
The windshield damage was caused by fragments from the headshot.
The unreliability of Greer's testimony has been demonstrated in Technicolor in this thread.
Tague was unsure whether it was the second or third shot. It was most likely caused by a bullet that missed it's target.