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Author Topic: Unsung Heroes  (Read 5140 times)

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Unsung Heroes
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2020, 10:56:35 AM »
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We do have a trace of a news broadcast on the death of an officer. The Dictabelt recording.

For the umpteenth time.... No, the dictabelt recording is not proof that there was a radio broadcast on Tippit's DOA.

The words "NBC News is reporting DOA" do not prove anything of the kind.

This is just you, being your usual stubborn self.

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Sabastian adds ". . . on the President?” Let take another look at the transcript of the Dictabelt tape:

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm

19 is the code for Officer C. B. Owens
75 is the code for Officer E. G. Sabastian
87 is the code for Officer R. C. Nelson

Below is the transcript that portion of the DIctabelt recording:

Dispatcher:         19
[19] Owens         19
Dispatcher:         Do you have the information?
[19] Owens         No. What?
Dispatcher:         On 2.

[75] Sabastian:   75
Dispatcher:         75
[75] Sabastian:   NBC News is reporting DOA.
Dispatcher:         That’s correct.
[75] Sabastian:   That the officer?
Dispatcher:         Yes.
[87] Nelson:        87.
[75] Sabastian:   . . . on the President?
Dispatcher:         No, that’s not correct, 19.

[?] unknown:     What officer was it?
Dispatcher:         J. D. Tippit.

This seems ambiguous. Is Officer Sabastian reporting that NBC said that Officer Tippit is DOA or the President?

However, I have learned not to trust the judgement of the person who typed out this transcript about who was broadcasting what. You, however, seem to be slow of learning.

Oh I have learned more than you think. I have in fact learned not to trust your judgement as you will twist and turn every which way you can to arrive at the point where you want to be. Whenever a point you have raised can no longer be sustained, as has happened several times in this discussion, you just move on to the next speculative point. Your latest effort being that  somehow the person who typed the transcript was confused.

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Let me give you my version of what was said and by who:

Dispatcher:         19
[19] Owens         19
Dispatcher:         Do you have the information?
[19] Owens         No. What?
Dispatcher:         On 2.

[75] Sabastian:   75
Dispatcher:         75
[75] Sabastian:   NBC News is reporting DOA.
Dispatcher:         That’s correct.
[75] Sabastian:   That the officer?
Dispatcher:         Yes.

[87] Nelson:        87.

[19] Owens:        . . . on the President?
Dispatcher:         No, that’s not correct, 19.

[?] unknown:     What officer was it?
Dispatcher:         J. D. Tippit.

Why do I believe that it is Officer Owens who is asking “. . . on the President?” and not Officer Sabastian? Because the Dispatcher responded with “No, that’s not correct, 19”. 19. That is Officer Owens, not Officer Sabastian. If it had been Officer Sabastian, he would have said “No, that’s not correct, 75.”

The Dispatcher could recognize everyone’s voice. He evidently had been working at this for a while and had developed a knack for it. Officer Sabastian was good at following protocol, and always, or at least usually, identified himself as “75”. But a lot of other officers didn’t. Because they had learned that the Dispatcher could recognize their voice. So, for instance, we find:

Someone speaks and says:   Did someone find a jacket?
Dispatcher responds:            No 85.

But the person never identified himself. So how did the Dispatcher know it was 85? Because he recognized his voice. I haven’t noticed the Dispatcher mistaken someone’s voice and being corrected. And yes, this is an example where the Dispatcher had not gotten the information yet, or understand it yet, that a jacket had been found. But he knew who he was talking to.

So, it was not Officer Sabastian who was confused about whether NBC News was reporting an officer or the President being DOA. It was a different officer, Officer Owens, who I assume had not heard the news report.

Clearly Officer Sabastian heard a report over the radio saying that an officer was DOA. He checked with the Dispatcher to confirm whether this is true or not. The police are always concerned about their fellow officers.

Officer Owens, not hearing the news report, was hoping the Dispatcher was confused. It was he, “19” who basically asked “You mean the President, don’t you?”


Another one of your "reasonable speculations"?  :D

Your "version" is nothing more than a string of self serving arguments based on a false premise. You need to listen to the actual broadcast. The dispatcher does not say "nineteen"... he says "nine ten" whatever that means.

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Could the media have gotten the news that he was DOA? Perhaps. Reporters were sent out there very quickly. One of them might have been instructed to confirm that the officer was dead. And in route spotted an ambulance and followed it, thinking that would be the fastest way to find out. Or, since people on the police radio reported that the officer was dead at the scene, it was assumed that he would be DOA. Or maybe an erroneous report, which happen all the time. Like the reporting of the death of a Secret Service agent in Dealey Plaza.

Again, it has already been shown to you in great detail that there was no way that Tippit being declared DOA (at 1.22) could have been reported on the radio at 1.25. There was no reporter at Methodist Hospital and no reporter has ever come forward to claim he was the one who called it in that Tippit was DOA. All you are doing is speculating about how the information could have gotten on the air so quickly and it only serves one purpose; to keep alive the story that Brewer heard a report on the radio.

Quote
In any case, it is clear that the death of a police officer was reported over the radio pretty early, early enough for Mr. Brewer to hear it.

And there it is..... You don't follow the facts, you shape them to arrive at the desired outcome. Our entire conversations serves no purpose. You made up your mind before you even started the thread and despite all the push back you simply stick to your opinion which you defend with whatever lousy argument you can think of. I have better things to do than to continue this pointless conversation which basically was and is nothing more than you looking for confirmation to support your claim that Brewer heard a radio broadcast when he said he did.

Get over it, there was no such broadcast. It hasn't surfaced in 57 years. Nobody, at none of the radio stations, has ever come forward and confirmed he was the person who broadcasted that report. You just keep on living in fantasy land! I'm done

I'll leave you with these wise words written in another thread by Mr. Alan J. Ford


The absolute truth always has a knack for standing all alone on its own, only lies need revisions.


How many times did you change your theory/story again?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 06:43:37 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Unsung Heroes
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2020, 10:56:35 AM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Unsung Heroes
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2020, 09:33:00 PM »

Oh I have learned more than you think. I have in fact learned not to trust your judgement as you will twist and turn every which way you can to arrive at the point where you want to be. Whenever a point you have raised can no longer be sustained, as has happened several times in this discussion, you just move on to the next speculative point. Your latest effort being that  somehow the person who typed the transcript was confused.

Another one of your "reasonable speculations"?  :D

Yes. It is. I leave it to the reader to go to

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

To see the transcripts of what was said on the Police Radio.

At the top of the first page, in the third paragraph, you will find the phrase “Real Player downloaded and installed”. Click on that to download the Real Player application that will allow you to listen to parts of the broadcast. It takes around 10 minutes to figure out how to download and install.

And looking at the transcripts and listening to portions of the broadcast, judge for yourself if my premise is correct. And never trust the word of Martin about what is recorded without checking it out for yourself.

What is my premise? That the person who transcribed the recordings did not do a good job of identifying who was talking to the Dispatcher. He may have recorded what was said pretty well, but misidentified the speaker on multiple occasions. What are some of the indicators of a mistake?

1.   If the transcript says “Officer A” gives a location where he is at, and two minutes later again gives the location where he is at, which is 13 miles away, then “Officer A” did not make both statements. These are two different statements made by two different officers.

2.   If the transcript says that “Officer A” asks for instructions, is given an address to go to, and acknowledges the instructions. And then a minute later “Officer A” appears to suffer a major memory lapse and again asks for instructions, is given the same address to go to, and again acknowledges the instructions, these statements were not all made by “Officer A”. Instead these are instructions given to two different officers telling them to go to the same address.


3.   If the transcript says that “Officer A” talks to the Dispatcher, and the Dispatcher responds as if he was talking to “Officer B”, then it was actually “Officer B” who was talking to the Dispatcher.

I will leave it to the reader to judge whether this is a reasonable premise or not.

Your "version" is nothing more than a string of self serving arguments based on a false premise. You need to listen to the actual broadcast. The dispatcher does not say "nineteen"... he says "nine ten" whatever that means.

No. I listened to the recording. The Dispatcher says “10” pause “19”. Clearly the Dispatcher is about to say a common phrase, like “10-4”. But then corrects himself and says “19”, indicating that he is talking to Officer Owens, not Officer Sabastian. He is definitely not saying “9-10”, which Martin can’t even come up with a theory about what that would be code for.

Again, I urge the reader not to take Martin’s word for it, not to take my word for it, but to download the Real Player application, which I gave some instructions on earlier, so they can listen to the recording and judge for themselves.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Unsung Heroes
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2020, 10:00:13 PM »
According to CE1974, "code 2" means "Urgent - siren and red lights as needed".

I agree with Martin.  "reporting DOA" refers to the president.  He doesn't literally mean "on arrival at Parkland", he means they are reporting that the president has died.  This was before the official flash from Kilduff, but I just discovered a Wikipedia article that says that ABC radio reported an unconfirmed report at 1:25 CST that the president had died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_John_F._Kennedy_assassination#ABC

You can hear the audio of that here at 44:59:


If you think they wouldn't use "DOA" in this fashion, consider the following exchange on police channel 2 at 1:30 (dispatcher time):

15 (Captain C.E. Talbert) Did you say he was DOA at Methodist?
Dispatcher Yes.
15 Have they released any condition on the President?
Dispatcher We understand he is DOA, too.


« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 10:32:48 PM by John Iacoletti »

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Re: Unsung Heroes
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2020, 10:00:13 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Unsung Heroes
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2020, 10:22:21 PM »
According to CE1974, "code 2" means "Urgent - siren and red lights as needed".

I agree with Martin.  "reporting DOA" refers to the president.  He doesn't literally mean "on arrival at Parkland", he means they are reporting that the president has died.  This was before the official flash from Kilduff, but I just discovered a Wikipedia article that says that ABC radio reported an unconfirmed report at 1:25 CST that the president had died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_John_F._Kennedy_assassination#ABC

If you think they wouldn't use "DOA" in this fashion, consider the following exchange on police channel 2 at 1:30 (dispatcher time):

15 (Captain C.E. Talbert) Did you say he was DOA at Methodist?
Dispatcher Yes.
15 Have they released any condition on the President?
Dispatcher We understand he is DOA, too.

According to CE1974, "code 2" means "Urgent - siren and red lights as needed".

Thanks John. I wasn't aware it was in the evidence.

The most interesting part of your post is that the first broadcast of the President having died was at 1.25, some 25 minutes after the doctors at Parkland had declared him dead.

Compare that to Tippit, who - if the official narrative and timeline are correct - was declared DOA at Methodist Hospital at 1.22, yet Joe Elliott would have us believe that no more than 3 minutes later Tippit's death was being broadcast on the radio, for Brewer (and Sabastian) to hear.

If Joe Elliott's theory is correct some unknown reporter (who has never been identified or come forward) was at Methodist to hear about Tippit's death, call it in to his station and get it on the air in under 3 minutes, where it took busloads of reporters present at Parkland 25 minutes to get the report about the President's death on the air.

Elliott can argue all he wants about Sabastian waiting for traffic lights under a code 2, being 13 miles away from 400 Jefferson when he said on the radio that he was almost there and having a commercial radio station on in his cruiser while racing down the highway with sirens and light and/or even the person who transcribed the dictabelt recordings being confused, but the simple comparision above says it all....

The only broadcast there was, was at 1.25 and it was about Kennedy and that's what Sabastian somehow heard and asked the dispatcher about!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 10:49:01 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline John Tonkovich

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Re: Unsung Heroes
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2020, 10:35:10 PM »
How many threads do we need on Johnny Brewer?

He is one of the "unsung heroes " (sic) who are not to be believed.

His compatriots are legion:
Ruth Paine.
Michael Paine.
Captain Westbrook.
Harry Holmes.
Will Fritz.
Agent Hosty.
Jack Ruby.
Wesley Frazier.
Agent Gerberling.
Patricia McMillan.

By no means am I saying those above were involved in the assassination. They were just willing participants in fingering Oswald, and helping push the official story.


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Re: Unsung Heroes
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2020, 10:35:10 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Unsung Heroes
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2020, 07:28:45 AM »

According to CE1974, "code 2" means "Urgent - siren and red lights as needed".

Correct. So, Officer Sabastian might have the siren on, or not. At times, sirens can be heard on the Dictabelt recording. But not when Officer Sabastian was speaking. So, it appears that officer Sabastian elected to not use the sirens and so could have easily heard a news report over the radio, as he said.



I agree with Martin.  "reporting DOA" refers to the president.  He doesn't literally mean "on arrival at Parkland", he means they are reporting that the president has died.  This was before the official flash from Kilduff, but I just discovered a Wikipedia article that says that ABC radio reported an unconfirmed report at 1:25 CST that the president had died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_John_F._Kennedy_assassination#ABC

You can hear the audio of that here at 44:59:


I know the media was reporting that the president may have died long before 1:25 CST. There were reports of quoting a Secret Service agent (no doubt, Clint Hill) that the President was dead. But it was always stressed that these were unconfirmed reports and that no official announcement had been made.

In any case, we know Officer Sabastian mentioned the officer. And might possibility (but probably not, probably Officer Owens) also mentioned the President. Why should this be considered only talking about the death of the President. Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to say that Officer Sabastian was only talking about the death of a police officer. Or at most the death of both a police officer and the President?


If you think they wouldn't use "DOA" in this fashion, consider the following exchange on police channel 2 at 1:30 (dispatcher time):

15 (Captain C.E. Talbert) Did you say he was DOA at Methodist?
Dispatcher Yes.
15 Have they released any condition on the President?
Dispatcher We understand he is DOA, too.

Yes. But this torpedoes one of Martin’s main points, that the report “NBC is reporting DOA. . . . That the officer?” could not be referring to Officer Tippit, because it was impossible, or at least unlikely, that they could have gotten that report from Methodist Hospital so soon. Someone, maybe a reporter, maybe a radio announcer, maybe Officer Sabastian himself, may have changed “dead” to “DOA”. Just as was done with President Kennedy.

A slightly garbled report, that the President was DOA, should not cause one to conclude that this could not possibility be referring to the death of President. Any more than a slightly garbled report, that a police officer was DOA, should not cause one to conclude that this could not possibility be referring to the death of a police officer.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Unsung Heroes
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2020, 07:50:13 AM »

According to CE1974, "code 2" means "Urgent - siren and red lights as needed".

Thanks John. I wasn't aware it was in the evidence.

The most interesting part of your post is that the first broadcast of the President having died was at 1.25, some 25 minutes after the doctors at Parkland had declared him dead.

Compare that to Tippit, who - if the official narrative and timeline are correct - was declared DOA at Methodist Hospital at 1.22, yet Joe Elliott would have us believe that no more than 3 minutes later Tippit's death was being broadcast on the radio, for Brewer (and Sabastian) to hear.

Yes. But as John Iacoletti pointed out, the police also talked about the President being DOA, even though he wasn’t.

Question 1:

If a report of the death of the President could be garbled into “the President was DOA”, why couldn’t something similar have happened regarding the report of a police officer being DOA?

I expect you will dodge this question.




Why would the media be so slow in reporting the death of the President but so fast in reporting the death of a police officer? Because it’s one thing to report a police officer was killed, and later be proven wrong. It’s another to report the death of the President, and later be proven wrong. That’s the sort of mistake that would define a career. If Dan Rather had made such a mistake, he would never have replaced Walter Cronkite.

We had very early reports on the death of a Secret Service agent at Dealey Plaza. Even though this had not been officially confirmed yet. Or had even happened. So, it is possible that there may have been early reports on the death of a police officer, based on nothing more than the police radio broadcasts which the media monitored. With those broadcasts alone, the media would have a lot more solid evidence about the death of a police officer then they did on the death of a Secret Service agent. And could be reporting this within minutes of the death of Officer Tippit.



If Joe Elliott's theory is correct some unknown reporter (who has never been identified or come forward) was at Methodist to hear about Tippit's death, call it in to his station and get it on the air in under 3 minutes, where it took busloads of reporters present at Parkland 25 minutes to get the report about the President's death on the air.

Elliott can argue all he wants about Sabastian waiting for traffic lights under a code 2, being 13 miles away from 400 Jefferson when he said on the radio that he was almost there and having a commercial radio station on in his cruiser while racing down the highway with sirens and light and/or even the person who transcribed the dictabelt recordings being confused, but the simple comparision above says it all....

The only broadcast there was, was at 1.25 and it was about Kennedy and that's what Sabastian somehow heard and asked the dispatcher about!

My theory about a reporter following an ambulance to Methodist Hospital was only mentioned as a possibility. An unlikely possibility, but a possibility. But this theory is not needed to explain the report of the death of a police officer being morphed into the report of a police officer being DOA. Since we know something similar happened with President Kennedy, false reports of him being DOA when he actually was never declared dead on arrival.

Question 2:

Do you deny that people sometimes referred to the death of the President as the President being DOA, even though this was technically false?

Question 3:

If not, why do you think something similar could not have happen in a report of the death of a police officer?


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Re: Unsung Heroes
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2020, 07:50:13 AM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Unsung Heroes
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2020, 09:55:33 AM »
Correct. So, Officer Sabastian might have the siren on, or not. At times, sirens can be heard on the Dictabelt recording. But not when Officer Sabastian was speaking. So, it appears that officer Sabastian elected to not use the sirens and so could have easily heard a news report over the radio, as he said.

I know the media was reporting that the president may have died long before 1:25 CST. There were reports of quoting a Secret Service agent (no doubt, Clint Hill) that the President was dead. But it was always stressed that these were unconfirmed reports and that no official announcement had been made.

In any case, we know Officer Sabastian mentioned the officer. And might possibility (but probably not, probably Officer Owens) also mentioned the President. Why should this be considered only talking about the death of the President. Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to say that Officer Sabastian was only talking about the death of a police officer. Or at most the death of both a police officer and the President?

Yes. But this torpedoes one of Martin’s main points, that the report “NBC is reporting DOA. . . . That the officer?” could not be referring to Officer Tippit, because it was impossible, or at least unlikely, that they could have gotten that report from Methodist Hospital so soon. Someone, maybe a reporter, maybe a radio announcer, maybe Officer Sabastian himself, may have changed “dead” to “DOA”. Just as was done with President Kennedy.

A slightly garbled report, that the President was DOA, should not cause one to conclude that this could not possibility be referring to the death of President. Any more than a slightly garbled report, that a police officer was DOA, should not cause one to conclude that this could not possibility be referring to the death of a police officer.

I said earlier that you would continue to twist and turn the facts as much as possible to keep your own theory (which you always consider to be correct) alive. And you have just proven me to be right. If it isn't the transcriber of the DPD radio dictabelt calls being "confused", then it is that Sabastian could have used his sirens and lights under code 2, but as no siren can be heard on the dictabelt, you say, he didn't, completely ignoring the fact that a police cruiser racing down a highway only needs to use his siren occasionally to alert cars in front of him....

You claim to know that "the media was reporting that the president may have died long before 1:25 CST" but you fail to provide any evidence in support of that "knowledge". And you falsely claim that "we know Officer Sabastian mentioned the officer" when in fact he did not mention the officer and we know no such thing. All we have is your claim that he asked "That the officer" when in fact the transcript has a questionmark behind his callsign 75.

You are just trying to win your argument by exhausting the people you talk to, by constantly throwing out new "possibillities", no matter how unlikely, instead of looking honestly at the available information.

The facts are simple. There was no radio broadcast about Tippit being DOA at 1.25. No such recording has ever surfaced, no reporter has ever come forward to take credit for it. It doesn't matter if something was garbled or not, because it never made it on air.

The claim that a broadcast about Tippit could have taken place based on "nothing more than the police radio broadcasts which the media monitored" fails simply because there were no such police radio broadcasts prior to Sabastian asking the dispatcher about the DOA reported by NBC News.

Your unwillingness to accept the reality that's staring you in the face makes it superfluous for anybody to confront you with the actual facts.

If you desperately want to believe that Johnny Brewer heard a report on the radio about an officer being shot before he started following the man to the Texas Theater, then have at it.... believe it as much as you like, but don't pretend there is any evidence for it because there clearly isn't and your Sabastian quote "NBC News is reporting DOA" doesn't alter that one bit.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 01:48:44 PM by Martin Weidmann »