Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )

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Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1960 on: September 17, 2022, 03:29:05 PM »
Skeptic/Warren Gullible/Lunchroom Gullible: 'Ha ha! There is zero evidence of Oswald in the doorway!'

Moi: 'There is zero evidence that the shadow down Mr. Billy Lovelady in Wiegman has a natural explanation.'

Skeptic/Warren Gullible/Lunchroom Gullible: 'So what? There is still zero evidence of Oswald in the doorway!'

Moi: 'The fact that a fake shadow has been added down Mr. Lovelady is evidence that something in that doorway is being hidden.'

Skeptic/Warren Gullible/Lunchroom Gullible: 'Prove it's Oswald!'

Moi: 'Offer us an alternative explanation for why the 'investigating' authorities would have felt the need to put a fake shadow down Mr. Lovelady.'

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1960 on: September 17, 2022, 03:29:05 PM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1961 on: September 17, 2022, 11:00:37 PM »
Everything--------on my scenario----------flowed from the simple fact that, within a very few hours of the assassination, the 'investigating' authorities knew that Mr. Oswald was up in the building's front entrance for the assassination.

They had to act fast, and they did, cobbling together a story they HOPED but could not be CERTAIN would hold over time.

They COULD have put 'I was on the sixth floor' in Mr. Oswald's mouth in the interrogation reports, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

They COULD have had Officer Baker/Mr. Truly encounter Mr. Oswald on, say, the fifth floor with a rifle in his hand, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

They COULD have gotten a controlled witness (or three!) to securely ID Mr. Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

They COULD have faked up a photo of Mr. Oswald firing from the sixth-floor window, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

They COULD have faked the results of the paraffin test on Mr. Oswald's cheek, but DIDN'T... because they KNEW that PROOF (photographic or otherwise) might yet emerge that he was in fact in the doorway at the time of the shooting.

A story had to be created that catered to TWO different scenarios:
a) Mr. Oswald as sixth-floor shooter
b) Mr. Oswald as in the doorway

Enter: second-floor lunchroom story--------------a story designed to be physically possible on both scenarios.

Does anyone believe that Mr. Oswald, in interrogation, was not asked where EXACTLY he was at the time of the assassination?

It's a given that he was, right?

Well.......... This went one of four ways:

a) Mr. Oswald gave a specific location (e.g. doorway; domino room; second-floor lunchroom; upper floor)

b) Mr. Oswald refused to give a specific location

c) Mr. Oswald said he couldn't give a specific location because he did not hear any shots and so did not know for sure when the shooting took place

d) Mr. Oswald gave a specific location, but then changed his story under further interrogation.

RE. a) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us SPECIFICALLY where Mr. Oswald said he was

RE. b) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us that Mr. Oswald REFUSED to give a specific location

RE. c) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us that Mr. Oswald said he COULD NOT speak to his specific location

RE. d) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us that Mr. Oswald CHANGED his claimed location under further interrogation.

It's very simple: Mr. Oswald claimed he was out on the front steps to watch the P. Parade. Because this claim was known to be true, it COULD NOT be reflected in the official interrogation reports. However, precisely BECAUSE it was known to be true, no OTHER claimed specific location could be put in Mr. Oswald's mouth.

Hence the VERY WEIRD silence of the official interrogation reports on Mr. Oswald's answer to the single most important question put to him in all the interrogations: Where were you when the shooting happened?

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1961 on: September 17, 2022, 11:00:37 PM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1962 on: September 21, 2022, 12:07:26 AM »
Friends, if (as I now believe, though subject to publication of further images from Darnell) the PM=LHO has gone the way of the old AltgensDoorwayman=LHO claim, then we ought to reflect on the massive importance of both claims in the history of JFK research:

They motivated intense scrutiny of the Depository doorway and its occupants.

Without the DoorwayMan theory, Mr. Billy Lovelady and his lies would not have become such a focus of researchers' attention over the years.

And without the PrayerMan theory, this attention on Mr. Lovelady (and on Mr. Shelley, as on others) would not have been intensified to the point where new insights were achieved, including the unassailable fact that the shadow down Mr. Lovelady's right side in Wiegman is naturalistically impossible. Furthermore, without the PrayerMan theory, Mr. Bart Kamp would not have been motivated to achieve what is perhaps the single most important archival find in the history of the case:



POTENTIALLY most importantly of all (IMO!), the PrayerMan theory MAY have led to Mr. Oswald's true location in that doorway being finally pinpointed:



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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1962 on: September 21, 2022, 12:07:26 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1963 on: September 21, 2022, 01:53:49 AM »
One thing does kinda puzzle me..............

When Prayer Man was first raised (back in 2013) Mr. Gary Mack gave as his view that Prayer Man was probably Mr. Billy Lovelady, then probably Mr. Bill Shelley (i.e. anybody but Mr. Oswald). Silly suggestions both, but that by the bye. When exactly did the Sixth Floor Museum first acquire the first-gen copy of the Darnell film, the one that visitors have been able to view in recent times? Reason I ask is, IF Mr. Mack had access to this copy back in 2013, then he would presumably have taken a look-------being by that time an Oswald-Did-It true believer, and, in his capacity as a well-paid employee of the Sixth Floor Museum, notoriously anxious to quash any notion that Mr. Oswald was anywhere other than at the SN window at the time of the shooting. After all, he DID take the trouble of contacting Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier to ask him about it (at the behest of another Oswald-Did-It true believer, Mr. John Mytton). And IF Mr. Mack did take a look and saw what we have now seen of the neck cut of the figure's upper garment, he could have (and, knowing him, would have been only too delighted to have) told everyone about it and saved us all a lot of trouble. Instead he seems to have accepted that Prayer Man was indeed a male.................

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« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 02:04:02 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1963 on: September 21, 2022, 01:53:49 AM »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1964 on: September 21, 2022, 03:21:51 AM »
PM is not likely Pauline Sanders because Sanders located herself at the EAST side of the front landing and at one point Sarah Stanton was beside her. Stanton we think then moved away from Sanders down a few steps and just east of Billy Lovelady on the east side of the center handrail. Stanton is supposedly the white fluffy shirt person with both hands raised shielding her face from sun.

PM is not likely Mrs Reid because Reid said she was standing NEXT to Mr.Campbell at the time the shots were fired.

Mr. Campbell at the time of shots fired was standing out on the sidewalk near the curb of Elm st. He can be seen in the Weigman film on the curb and beside him is a woman who appears to be older woman

Carolyn Arnold was supposedly nearby Mrs Reid out on the sidewalk in front of TSBD from where Carolyn supposedly looked back towards the TSBD entrance steps approx 12:25 and saw Oswald  standing in the front  lobby ( thru the glass partition wall)

Now if Arnold were PM then was Carolyn Arnold only 5’3” tall?

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1964 on: September 21, 2022, 03:21:51 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1965 on: September 21, 2022, 03:51:31 AM »
PM is not likely Pauline Sanders because Sanders located herself at the EAST side of the front landing and at one point Sarah Stanton was beside her. Stanton we think then moved away from Sanders down a few steps and just east of Billy Lovelady on the east side of the center handrail. Stanton is supposedly the white fluffy shirt person with both hands raised shielding her face from sun.

PM is not likely Mrs Reid because Reid said she was standing NEXT to Mr.Campbell at the time the shots were fired.

Mr. Campbell at the time of shots fired was standing out on the sidewalk near the curb of Elm st. He can be seen in the Weigman film on the curb and beside him is a woman who appears to be older woman

Carolyn Arnold was supposedly nearby Mrs Reid out on the sidewalk in front of TSBD from where Carolyn supposedly looked back towards the TSBD entrance steps approx 12:25 and saw Oswald  standing in the front  lobby ( thru the glass partition wall)

Now if Arnold were PM then was Carolyn Arnold only 5’3” tall?

Well, if PrayerMan is a woman, then she must be somebody. Which means that somebody either misrecalled or misrepresented their position at the time of the actual shooting..........

Mrs. Sanders may possibly have moved over to the west wall at the last minute to get a better view of the motorcade on Houston. The 1960s photo we have of her does not (unlike that of Mrs. Stanton!) rule her out as PrayerMan IMO. Though she would be a surprising solution!

Yes, Mrs. Reid SAID she was out with Messrs. Campbell & Truly. But she may be lying in order to take herself out of the doorway. We have very good reason to believe she lied about other things. And the photo we have of her is not incompatible with her being PrayerMan IMO. In fact, I think it's the closest visual match we've seen to the new version of the Darnell frame I posted recently. Mrs. Reid may have been on the steps and heard the exchange between Mrs. Sanders and Mr. Campbell shortly after the shooting---------------and plagiarized it to lend credence to her story that she was out on the street with Mr. Campbell. It's even possible her story about Mr. Oswald coming through a door and her telling him the Pres. had been shot was originally about a different door to the one going into the second-floor office area---------------it may have been the FRONT DOOR of the building. (Ms. Karen Westbrook's wording on her recollection of what Mrs. Reid told colleagues is interesting here.) What I do NOT believe is the massive fluke that, of all the employees of the Depository to report an independent sighting of Mr. Oswald in the building after the shooting, it just so happened to be three people who were standing together for the P. Parade (Mr. Truly, Mr. Campbell, Mrs. Reid). That mother of all flukes screams pressure having been put on Mrs. Reid to help out her superiors. Incidentally, Mrs. Reid is described by a colleague as 'little', which may help with the height issue you raise.

The man identified as Mr. Campbell in Wiegman looks nothing like him.

Ms. Arnold is placed in the doorway by Mr. Shelley in an FBI interview. When she was asked about her reported sighting of Mr. Oswald behind the doorway years later, she got awful defensive. She may have left the group out by the street at the last minute (being heavily pregnant and wanting to get out of the sunlight) and, on her way into the entranceway, noticed Mr. Oswald just behind the glass door (just before he came outside). The FBI might have screwed with the timeframe on what she told them (as well of course as suppressing her earlier sighting of Mr. Oswald in the lunchroom several minutes before the motorcade).

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« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 03:57:54 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1965 on: September 21, 2022, 03:51:31 AM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1966 on: September 21, 2022, 02:10:23 PM »
Does anyone believe that Mr. Oswald, in interrogation, was not asked where EXACTLY he was at the time of the assassination?

It's a given that he was, right?

Well.......... This went one of four ways:

a) Mr. Oswald gave a specific location (e.g. doorway; domino room; second-floor lunchroom; upper floor)

b) Mr. Oswald refused to give a specific location

c) Mr. Oswald said he couldn't give a specific location because he did not hear any shots and so did not know for sure when the shooting took place

d) Mr. Oswald gave a specific location, but then changed his story under further interrogation.

RE. a) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us SPECIFICALLY where Mr. Oswald said he was

RE. b) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us that Mr. Oswald REFUSED to give a specific location

RE. c) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us that Mr. Oswald said he COULD NOT speak to his specific location

RE. d) above: Not ONE of the interrogation reports sees fit to tell us that Mr. Oswald CHANGED his claimed location under further interrogation.

It's very simple: Mr. Oswald claimed he was out on the front steps to watch the P. Parade. Because this claim was known to be true, it COULD NOT be reflected in the official interrogation reports. However, precisely BECAUSE it was known to be true, no OTHER claimed specific location could be put in Mr. Oswald's mouth.

Hence the VERY WEIRD silence of the official interrogation reports on Mr. Oswald's answer to the single most important question put to him in all the interrogations: Where were you when the shooting happened?

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From page 22 of Hosty's  Assignment: Oswald.

Captain Fritz:  You were working in the book depository today. Is that right?

Lee Oswald:....Yes...

Captain Fritz;  Were you there when the president's motorcade went by?

Lee Oswald:.... Yes...

Captain Fritz:...Where were you when the president went by the book depository?

Lee Oswald:... I was eating my lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom.   

From Cap't Fritz's notes ( which he swore he never took) ....

The following is not verbatim.....

(Oswald ) Says...  Two fellow colored employees walked by the lunchroom while he was eating lunch. One called Junior and other man short stature .....Says he didn't know their names.  Check with Mr Truly to see if he knows the two men.

The two men were Junior Jarman and Harold Norman and they swore that they in fact did walk by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:27....

Lee's statement of seeing those two walk by the lunchroom is a rock solid alibi..... But Lee wasn't using it as an alibi when he replied to Fritz's question ..... He was simply stating what he saw while he was there in that lunchroom. He had no idea that Fritz would question Jarman and Norman, or if they would verify that they had in fact walked by the lunchroom.

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1966 on: September 21, 2022, 02:10:23 PM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1967 on: September 21, 2022, 03:42:52 PM »
From page 22 of Hosty's  Assignment: Oswald.

Captain Fritz:  You were working in the book depository today. Is that right?

Lee Oswald:....Yes...

Captain Fritz;  Were you there when the president's motorcade went by?

Lee Oswald:.... Yes...

Captain Fritz:...Where were you when the president went by the book depository?

Lee Oswald:... I was eating my lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom.   

Agent Hosty is giving this misleading account years later, when the risk of Mr. Oswald's presence on the steps coming to light has receded. Unfortunately for him, but fortunately for us, his own contemporaneous draft interrogation report came to light in 2019, and it says something completely different
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 03:44:15 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1967 on: September 21, 2022, 03:42:52 PM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1968 on: September 22, 2022, 11:44:43 PM »
The Darnell frame I posted a couple of pages back in this thread shows PrayerMan with an upper-garment neck cut that seems incompatible with this being Mr. Oswald. It seems Mr. Kamp posted it originally without quite realizing its significance.

Anyone wishing to argue that we can't read too much into just one frame is right, but only up to a point. For Mr. Hackerott has inspected multiple frames from the first-gen copy in the Sixth Floor Museum and-------long before our 'new' frame first went online-------noticed the same feature/problem. Those who wish to continue to press the PM=LHO claim need to go beyond the 'It's only one frame' argument.

They also need to go beyond the (obvious) point that PrayerMan is not Mrs. Sarah Stanton. We know that, and have done for a very long time. What's new here is that Mr. Oswald now no longer seems a viable candidate either. PrayerMan's not being Mrs. Stanton does not make PrayerMan Mr. Oswald, especially when this 'new' Darnell frame makes it appear that PrayerMan is in fact a woman!

Whoever PrayerMan is, the answer is going to be surprising (in a way that PM=LHO wouldn't have been, given that Mr. Oswald was an employee who claimed to have gone outside to watch the P. Parade and who, unlike others, did not give a location in the doorway other than the Prayer Man location).

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Where do the PrayerMan people want to take this? Do they want to argue that the Sixth Floor Museum copy was altered between 2013 and whenever it was made viewable to visitors?

Or do they want to put upper clothing on Mr. Oswald that would be compatible with what we see in the 'new' Darnell frame? Because a white tshirt or Mr. Oswald's reddish shirt with white tshirt underneath just ain't going to (so to speak) cut it.

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I honestly fear those PrayerMan advocates who are pretending the problem posed by this 'new' Darnell frame doesn't exist are making a bad mistake. They are doing what they believe the AltgensDoorwayman advocates did for so long: doubling down dogmatically on only ONE possible solution to the question of Mr. Oswald's doorway location, and thereby missing a more viable solution to that question. They need to stop acting like the Hosty draft report has Mr. Oswald stating he "went outside to watch the P. Parade and stood over by the west wall of the front entrance".

I was a strong supporter of the PM=LHO claim, but not any more. The evidence now points away from it.

However! The evidence continues to support the claim (Mr. Oswald's own) that he went outside to watch the P. Parade.

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Furthermore! Those who either pretend, absurdly, that the shadow down Mr. Lovelady in Wiegman is due to a turn in his body or (just as absurdly) due to natural shadow---------------------



-----------------------or concede that they cannot explain this shadow but refuse to accept that this anomaly may be highly significant---------------are in a sad state of denial IMHO................

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I ask the PrayerMan advocates two things:

1. Can you explain the shadow down Mr. Lovelady in the Wiegman frame above?

2. If not, then could you please ask yourself a simple question: If Prayer Man is LHO, then why on earth would anyone have seen a need to put a shadow down Lovelady in Wiegman?

Wake up!

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« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 11:58:16 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1968 on: September 22, 2022, 11:44:43 PM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1969 on: September 23, 2022, 08:22:26 AM »
You can determine gender from an alleged “neck cut”?

 

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