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Author Topic: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )  (Read 219674 times)

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #864 on: January 16, 2021, 12:41:00 AM »
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Otis Neville Williams FBI statement March 19 1964, suggests he was “momentarily” remaining standing at the front entrance ( next to Pauline Sanders) just after hearing 3 shots. He then went back into the building and up to his 2nd floor office.

So not only is Williams a good candidate for being in the front lobby within 30 secs post shots, but his reference to Mrs Sanders is a supporting argument that Sarah Stanton DID move away from Pauline Sanders to some other location, which as Mr.Ford has posited is possibly the steps just east of the center handrail, an Stanton is  the fluffy white shirt person with both hands raised shading the face.

The other candidate IDK , because Molina did NOT see Baker and Molina states only seeing Truly go IN to the building which implies Molina is still OUTSIDE.

Mr. Campbell possibly might have returned before Baker buts it’s unlikely imo, as Campbell ran to the GK and I think in the Couch film background as Couch camera pans towards the GK , a man with hat and suit on is seen running Right hand side past the Stemmons freeway sign.

It’s definitely NOT Mr. Shelley and Billy Lovelady, as they are walking away in from the steps as Baker is seen in Couch film running to the TSBD entrance steps

Doubtful that BW Frazier was the 2nd man now INSIDE and in the frint foyer , because surely even fuzzy memory Frazier would have remembered Truly and Baker in that case.

I noticed in reading the 3 FBI statements from Otis Neville Williams that the March 19/64 one seems to include an FBI “deniability” clause specifically about NOT seeing Oswald. However, after  this “do not recall” clause, Williams curiously  states  that he MAY have seen Oswald in the TSBD but is basically unsure what the EXACT day it was!?

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #864 on: January 16, 2021, 12:41:00 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #865 on: January 16, 2021, 12:51:08 AM »
Stanton is  the fluffy white shirt person with both hands raised shading the face.

 :D

The man in the white shirt shielding his eyes on top of the TSBD front steps is Joe Molina.

"Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders.
Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders.
Mr. MOLINA. Yes."



Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #866 on: January 16, 2021, 01:36:12 AM »
Fluffy white shirt person”  phrase is all that I can take credit for :)

Mr. Ford is the one who proposed this location on the front steps for Sarah Stanton, in response to my question where is Sarah Stanton if PM is now considered to be Oswald?

As for Molina, if Williams and Sanders are to his left, then does not that place Molina on the top level landing rather than several steps down?

Fluffy white shirt person is short enough to be Stanton imo, but the forearms somewhat questionable if they are “flabby” enough to belong to the fat lady.






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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #866 on: January 16, 2021, 01:36:12 AM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #867 on: January 16, 2021, 05:30:11 AM »
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.


Who on earth were these two white men?

Alan, I've reread the "second floor lunchroom" tale in the W.R. ( pages 149-156) and there certainly seems to be major problems with Baker's story....  Particularly with his tale of spotting Lee walking east in the small vestibule which was at the west end of the lunchroom.   That vestibule was so small ( about 4 feet across) that it could be traversed with about two normal steps....  Baker said that he caught a fleeting glimpse of a man walking across the vestibule so he walked across the area at the top of the stairs to the west door into the lunch room and saw the man (Lee Oswald) walking toward the rear ( east end) of the lunchroom, and ordered him to "come here".   Problem.....If Lee was a fleeing killer he could easily have exited out the north door (which was just a couple of feet east of the Coke machine) of the lunchroom,  before Baker could have crossed the second floor landing....

The distance from the door at the west end of the lunchroom to the door just east of the coke machine was about 12 feet, while the distance from the top of the stairs to the door at the west end of the lunchroom was about 25 feet and Baker had to open the vestibule door .   

Bottom line:... In reality, If Lee had been a fleeing assassin and there was any validity to the tale....Lee wouldn't have been in that lunchroom....  He would have exited the lunchroom through the north door, before Baker could have reached the Vestibule door.

It appears that you may be onto a major flaw in the official tale....  Can you post some of the info from the WR...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 06:27:11 AM by Walt Cakebread »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #868 on: January 16, 2021, 07:04:04 AM »
Otis Neville Williams FBI statement March 19 1964, suggests he was “momentarily” remaining standing at the front entrance ( next to Pauline Sanders) just after hearing 3 shots. He then went back into the building and up to his 2nd floor office.

So not only is Williams a good candidate for being in the front lobby within 30 secs post shots, but his reference to Mrs Sanders is a supporting argument that Sarah Stanton DID move away from Pauline Sanders to some other location, which as Mr.Ford has posited is possibly the steps just east of the center handrail, an Stanton is  the fluffy white shirt person with both hands raised shading the face.

The other candidate IDK , because Molina did NOT see Baker and Molina states only seeing Truly go IN to the building which implies Molina is still OUTSIDE.

Mr. Campbell possibly might have returned before Baker buts it’s unlikely imo, as Campbell ran to the GK and I think in the Couch film background as Couch camera pans towards the GK , a man with hat and suit on is seen running Right hand side past the Stemmons freeway sign.

It’s definitely NOT Mr. Shelley and Billy Lovelady, as they are walking away in from the steps as Baker is seen in Couch film running to the TSBD entrance steps

Doubtful that BW Frazier was the 2nd man now INSIDE and in the frint foyer , because surely even fuzzy memory Frazier would have remembered Truly and Baker in that case.

I noticed in reading the 3 FBI statements from Otis Neville Williams that the March 19/64 one seems to include an FBI “deniability” clause specifically about NOT seeing Oswald. However, after  this “do not recall” clause, Williams curiously  states  that he MAY have seen Oswald in the TSBD but is basically unsure what the EXACT day it was!?

Thank you for these thoughts, Mr Mason.  Thumb1:

The key phrases in Officer Baker's account, one feels, are "several people" and "standing around". This describes the landing @~30secs post-shooting, not the lobby IMO.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 07:25:08 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #868 on: January 16, 2021, 07:04:04 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #869 on: January 16, 2021, 07:21:30 AM »
Alan, I've reread the "second floor lunchroom" tale in the W.R. ( pages 149-156) and there certainly seems to be major problems with Baker's story....  Particularly with his tale of spotting Lee walking east in the small vestibule which was at the west end of the lunchroom.   That vestibule was so small ( about 4 feet across) that it could be traversed with about two normal steps....  Baker said that he caught a fleeting glimpse of a man walking across the vestibule so he walked across the area at the top of the stairs to the west door into the lunch room and saw the man (Lee Oswald) walking toward the rear ( east end) of the lunchroom, and ordered him to "come here".   Problem.....If Lee was a fleeing killer he could easily have exited out the north door (which was just a couple of feet east of the Coke machine) of the lunchroom,  before Baker could have crossed the second floor landing....

The distance from the door at the west end of the lunchroom to the door just east of the coke machine was about 12 feet, while the distance from the top of the stairs to the door at the west end of the lunchroom was about 25 feet and Baker had to open the vestibule door .   

Bottom line:... In reality, If Lee had been a fleeing assassin and there was any validity to the tale....Lee wouldn't have been in that lunchroom....  He would have exited the lunchroom through the north door, before Baker could have reached the Vestibule door.

It appears that you may be onto a major flaw in the official tale....  Can you post some of the info from the WR...

Both Officer Baker and Mr Truly are all over the place in their accounts.

But again, Mr Cakebread, I think the core issue is much simpler---------------

---> Officer Baker confronting a man walking away from the stairway a number of floors up the building makes sense; his turning that man loose constitutes a MAJOR error of judgment.

---> Officer Baker confronting a man he has spotted behind a closed door by a lunchroom a mere one floor up makes no sense; but at least turning that man loose would amount to no more than an unfortunate but completely understandable judgment call (a lot more understandable in fact than his having bothered to go after him in the first place!).

The whole point of the invented lunchroom story is to explain away two real encounters (one Oswaldian, one non-Oswaldian), both disastrous to the Oswald-Did-It accusation, by merging them into a single Oswaldian encounter located in a place that both
---------------a) makes it possible, with a little finessing of timelines etc, to convince folks that Mr Oswald could have done the dread deed on six
---------------b) saves Officer Baker (and by extension the DPD) from utter embarrassment (incl. NB! culpability in the death of Officer Tippit).
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 07:27:50 AM by Alan Ford »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #870 on: January 16, 2021, 07:24:01 AM »
Fluffy white shirt person”  phrase is all that I can take credit for :)

Mr. Ford is the one who proposed this location on the front steps for Sarah Stanton, in response to my question where is Sarah Stanton if PM is now considered to be Oswald?

As for Molina, if Williams and Sanders are to his left, then does not that place Molina on the top level landing rather than several steps down?

Fluffy white shirt person is short enough to be Stanton imo, but the forearms somewhat questionable if they are “flabby” enough to belong to the fat lady.

NB! Mr Lovelady, in interview with Mr Dom Bonafede, pointed out in Altgens 6 a lady who worked on the second floor. And Ms Stanton is the only second-floor female employee on those steps he ever mentions elsewhere.

Re. the arms: as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, the photograph we have of Ms Stanton with her son shows that her forearms were not fat. No reason the figure in Altgens can't be her!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 07:31:26 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #870 on: January 16, 2021, 07:24:01 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #871 on: January 16, 2021, 07:44:42 AM »


It is theoretically possible that this encounter happened after Officer Baker and Mr Truly returned to the first floor.

We actually have Alyea footage of the pair from that timeframe-----------



They are not far here from one of two storage rooms on the first floor.

Incidentally, the Alyea footage rather throws into question Officer Baker's account of his movements after descending to the first floor with Mr Truly..........

Mr. BELIN - All right. You got off the elevator then?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?
Mr. BAKER - I left Mr. Truly there.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I immediately went on out.


Perhaps he had a reason for 'misremembering' this phase of his Depository adventure?

 Thumb1:
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 07:57:12 AM by Alan Ford »