Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )

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Offline Royell Storing

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2020, 02:05:55 AM »
  Let's Not forget that MOTORCYCLE Officer Baker allegedly came Roaring around the corner of Houston/Elm St. We have All seen the still frame pics of people standing at ground level and being stretched across the front of the TSBD. This Shoulda been a Ringling Bros worthy show unfolding right in front of their eyes. Officer Baker Roaring around the corner onto Elm St, then HASTILY parking his bike at the curb and then SPRINTING across the Elm St Extension toward the TSBD is right outta an episode of "Chips". Of ALL those Eyewitnesses standing in front of the TSBD, NONE of them has reported seeing Baker's alleged Derring-do Unfolding DIRECTLY in Front of them. 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 02:09:34 AM by Royell Storing »

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2020, 02:05:55 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2020, 02:13:18 AM »
Calm down Alan, ranting only makes you say stupid things. Baker didn't disappear into thin air when he reached the steps. Both Shelley and Lovelady testified to seeing Baker approaching the steps, that I think they lied about how long it took Baker to get there doesn't matter and the reason "they did not look back" is because they are not the individuals identified walking away in Darnell, the film that shows Baker running at speed towards the steps.

 :D

Your desperation is showing, Mr O'Meara!

You believe this is Mr Lovelady and Ms Calvery in Darnell, right?---------------------



Now! Tell us where exactly you think Officer Baker and Mr Truly are at this same moment. That way, we can see how credible the WC testimony of your star co-witness Mr Lovelady re. his sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly is!  Thumb1:
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 02:17:49 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2020, 02:13:18 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2020, 02:17:00 AM »
Now for your list of all the people who noticed our inconspicuous nobody leaving the building several minutes after the shooting:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.


I think you'll find this is a list of all those who place your conspicuous creep on the steps. And breathe out  8)

 :D :D

You're not very good at this, are you, Mr O'Meara?

You can't name anyone who saw Mr Oswald leave the building. Therefore-----------by your logic not mine-----------he never left the building! Maybe you think he's still there?  :D

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2020, 02:17:00 AM »

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2020, 02:25:59 AM »
:D :D

You're not very good at this, are you, Mr O'Meara?

You can't name anyone who saw Mr Oswald leave the building. Therefore-----------by your logic not mine-----------he never left the building! Maybe you think he's still there?  :D

Dear Alan,

If, as surmised by Buell Wesley Frazier, Oswald exited the building through the loading dock door, and then walked up the sidewalk towards the intersection of Elm and Houston (but crossed over the street before he reached said intersection), how many people who knew him should have noticed him?

Couple hundred?

--  MWT  ;)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 02:29:17 AM by Thomas Graves »

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2020, 02:25:59 AM »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2020, 07:28:31 PM »
:D

Your desperation is showing, Mr O'Meara!

You believe this is Mr Lovelady and Ms Calvery in Darnell, right?---------------------



Now! Tell us where exactly you think Officer Baker and Mr Truly are at this same moment. That way, we can see how credible the WC testimony of your star co-witness Mr Lovelady re. his sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly is!  Thumb1:

Dear Alan,

You are such a dream to argue with. It's like I don't even need to take part while you argue my case for me. In an earlier, unnecessarily rude post you told me to "quit making a fool" of myself. Well, why don't I make a fool of you instead.
Firstly, let's just clear something up. The identification of Shelley and Lovelady as the two figures walking down the dead-end street directly in front of the TSBD is based on almost nothing. It's an image of two white males walking towards the railroad yard and that's it. The WC testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady categorically refute this identification. Both men are crystal clear that they did not leave the area of the steps until after their encounter with Gloria Calvery and that Calvery did not arrive until at least three minutes after the final shooting. Both men are crystal clear in their testimonies that they didn't see Baker until after they had seen Gloria Calvery which can only mean one thing - both men are testifying that Baker didn't arrive on the scene until at least three minutes after the last shot!!! I am not making this up, it's in their testimonies. From Darnell we know this to be a falsehood as the arrival of Baker can be timed, with a fair degree of accuracy, to no more than 30 seconds  The only thing the identification of the two men walking down the street as Shelley and Lovelady has got going for it is that the testimony that refutes it is given by liars. Hardly a sound basis for an ID.
So where were Shelley and Lovelady when they saw Baker approaching the steps? The pic you posted has the answer to that question. Just off to the left of the frame Baker is racing past Roy Truly towards a group of people who seem to be making their way up the stairs except for one man facing down the stairs. In his part of the testimony concerning the recreation of their dash into the building Truly notes " I said when the officer and I ran in, we were shouldering people aside in front of the building". This must surely be a reference to the people stood on the left-hand side of the front entrance steps as we look at it, the side Baker is approaching from. These people must have seen Baker rushing up the stairs as he barged past them, so who are they? This pic gives us a very large clue:




Note the striking resemblance to Lovelady in the top pic and the man facing down the stairs on the bottom one (and is that Lovelady's checkered shirt I can just about make out in the pic you posted Alan? I believe it is you know). We know from Altgens 6 and this still from Hughes this is, more or less, Lovelady's position around the time of the shooting:



So we can identify with some degree of confidence that the man on the steps is Lovelady. What about the woman directly in front of him wearing the black headscarf and black top and with whom he appears to be in conversation with, an impression strongly reinforced by the Larsen/Graves Gif in which we see the lady in white, who is linking arms with this woman, trying to ascend the steps but is held back by her companion, apparently engaged in conversation with Lovelady:



It seems to me that the lady in the black headscarf is leaning against the wall for support as her friend tries to pull her up the steps but she doesn't move as she is engaged conversation with Lovelady. This is surely the moment when Gloria Calvery comes running up to the steps and tells Lovelady about the assassination:

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was...

Lending credence to this account is a very similar one given by Joe Molina:

Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

Some people think the man on the steps is Joe Molina but he clearly states he was stood inside the lobby of the front entrance when Gloria and 'this other girl', presumably the lady in white, came up to him. If the lady in the black headscarf talking to Lovelady on the steps is indeed Gloria Calvery, then a few things must follow:

She must have been very close to the actual assassination to see the amount of detail she describes.
She was most probably stood there in the company of her friend, the lady in white.
She must have been close enough to get back to the TSBD before Baker arrived there.
She most probably appears in the Zapruder footage.

In her "Hoover Questionnaire" Calvery states that she was with three friends - Carol Reed, Karen Westbrook and Karen Hicks - who were stood on Elm about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass.



Gloria was quite tall and big with it (check out her legs compared to her co-workers - sorry Gloria). Karen Westbrook was also quite tall while Reed and Hicks were shorter. So, in the Zfilm we are looking for four friends, two slightly taller than the others (keep an eye out for the legs), one in a black headscarf and black top, one all in white and all close enough to the final head-shot to see it in detail:



It's not a difficult identification. The lady in white being one of the shorter two is either Reed or Hicks. The only question is could they have made it back to the TSBD steps before Baker got there? In the schematic below the scale bar at the bottom represents 40ft. Calvery an her friends are approximately positioned just to the east of the single tree on the grassy expanse in front of the pergola. Using the scale it's possible to get a rough estimate of no more than 150 ft from this position to the TSBD steps. A person walking at a sedate pace of 3mph can cover just over 130 ft in 30 seconds. A person running, as both Shelley and Lovelady testify Calvery was, can cover the distance in half the time. Enough time to get there and be leaning against the wall as she tells Lovelady about the assassination.



Most of this is a regurgitation of work done by Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves, check it out here - http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25790-the-identification-of-gloria-calvery-in-zapruder-and-darnell/

What about Shelley? Multiple witnesses have him at the steps around this time. So, we're looking for a skinny chap in a baggy black suit and my favourite candidate is the man stood at the bottom of the steps looking in the direction of Baker as he approaches. The upshot of all this is that both Shelley and Lovelady did witness the approaching Baker but lied about where they were and how long it took for Baker to get there (something that needs explaining). What about Calvery and Reed/Hicks? Along with nearly all the females on the steps (Bonnie Richey, Betty Dragoo, Virgie Baker, Judy Johnson, Jeraldean Reid, Sarah Stanton) they were never asked, as far as I am aware, to give an official statement other than the 'Hoover Questionnaire' which only wanted very specific details. Exceptions were Pauline Sanders, who did identify Baker on the steps and Carolyn Arnold, who provided very little detail (other than a potential 'fleeting glimpse' Oswald standing in the lobby of the front entrance which she specifically retracted in a subsequent statement but one can't help but get the faint whiff of FBI pressure about this - maybe, maybe not).
I believe that makes it 4 - 2 to me on the Baker witnesses, you mentioned Molina but forgot Frazier, You can have him for free  ;D). I'd love to have Ochus Campell's "... and a motorcycle policeman rushed up" but it's too sketchy.

"You're not very good at this, are you, Mr O'Meara?

You can't name anyone who saw Mr Oswald leave the building. Therefore-----------by your logic not mine-----------he never left the building! Maybe you think he's still there?"


When you wrote this in an earlier post I thought you were just having a 'senior moment' so I let it go as it was before the insults started - "While you're at it, perhaps you can also give us the names of the many people congregated at the front entrance who noticed the 'not invisible' Mr Oswald leaving the building several minutes after the assassination? If you can't, then do you conclude that he never left the building?"

I've not been doing this for long but I did make an early breakthrough - there is more than one exit to the TSBD!!! Please keep it quiet as I'm thinking about writing a book. I think Thomas, being the excellent researcher he is, might be aware of the exit onto the Houston Street dock but he's not mentioned the secret door on the west side of the building. I shouldn't be telling you really but I'm just so excited. There's going to be a whole chapter on an external fire escape that seems to have completely gone under the radar.
Have a little read over the point your making about Oswald not being seen leaving through the front entrance of the TSBD and then, by my logic, you should take some meds and treat yourself to a nice lie down.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 08:03:05 PM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2020, 07:28:31 PM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2020, 10:55:41 PM »
You think?

Looks like?

Hmmmmmm

If Dan is convinced that a blurry film frame shows somebody digging into a purse for cigarettes, then by golly that's just what it is.

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2020, 10:55:41 PM »

Offline Alan J. Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2020, 02:44:45 AM »
Please excuse the interruption gentlemen...just in briefly to record some notes for follow up reference/post later this weekend when I have more time.

*Ms/Mrs. Hendrix's Commission Exhibit 1381 Statement (page 18, right-hand column)

*Compare Gloria Calvery's wedding picture height with woman climbing steps w/woman in white. Use the photo image at the Tire Dealership Ad as well.

*Compare Ms/Mrs. Hendrick's timeline dash to Marrion Baker's ----->


Ms/Mrs. Hendrix was 51 years old. Roy Truly was 56 years old on Friday, November 22, 1963 (IF he can handle rushing up five flights of stairs, she could handle a short distance sprint back to the building per her CE 1381 Statement.










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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2020, 02:44:45 AM »

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2020, 04:14:01 AM »
Please excuse the interruption gentlemen...just in briefly to record some notes for follow up reference/post later this weekend when I have more time.

*Ms/Mrs. Hendrix's Commission Exhibit 1381 Statement (page 18, right-hand column)

*Compare Gloria Calvery's wedding picture height with woman climbing steps w/woman in white. Use the photo image at the Tire Dealership Ad as well.

*Compare Ms/Mrs. Hendrick's timeline dash to Marrion Baker's ----->


Ms/Mrs. Hendrix was 51 years old. Roy Truly was 56 years old on Friday, November 22, 1963 (IF he can handle rushing up five flights of stairs, she could handle a short distance sprint back to the building per her CE 1381 Statement.

Dear Alan,

You do realize don't you that at the beginning of the pertinent part of the clip, the woman wearing the black blouse (tall Gloria Calvery) was standing one step below the woman in white (average height Carol Reed), and at the end of the clip she was standing two steps below her?

--  MWT  ;)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 04:31:46 AM by Thomas Graves »

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2020, 04:14:01 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2020, 06:23:16 AM »
Dear Alan, (~snip snip~)

Thank you for this error-riddled essay, Mr O'Meara, which amounts to little more than an extended exercise in missing the point!  Thumb1:

We agree that Mr Lovelady can be seen in Darnell, talking to (probably) Ms Calvery--------------




Now for the problems!

1. Sorry, but this large man is not Mr Shelley--------------



-------------try as you might to convince yourself that it is by restricting yourself to a frame showing him profile... (nice try though!)

2. Mr Shelley's own same-day affidavit says he ran into Ms Calvery (whom he knew well BTW!) at the "corner" of the "park". This would put him away from the steps by the time of Darnell, and would (if he's telling the truth in that affidavit) explain why he's nowhere to be found there. (And no, "Multiple witnesses" do NOT "have him at the steps around this time.") What's certain is that he's lying in his WC testimony.

Conclusion? Both Mr Lovelady and Mr Shelley are lying in their WC testimonies with respect to their sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly's dash into the building. Which leaves you with a grand total of zero credible witnesses to both men's dash into the building.

Does that mean they didn't dash into the building? No! It just means your argument that the much more inconspicuous Mr Oswald's going unnoticed by most folk on the steps for the v. short time he was out there means he can't have been out there is pitifully weak------------as have all the arguments we've heard to date from Team Keep LHO Away From The Front Entrance!

But now to the question--------------Why would Messrs Lovelady and Shelley lie about their immediate post-assassination movements?

Mr Lovelady's reason is easy to establish, Mr Shelley's not so easy.

Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony).

Mr Oswald told the truth about his movements in these minutes. What has come to light about what he said in custody offers a compelling counter-narrative to the official story. He really did visit the second-floor lunchroom for a coke before the assassination; he really did return to the first floor, where he saw Messrs Jarman and Norman re-enter the building by the back; he really did go outside to watch the P. parade; and he really did have an encounter involving an officer and Mr Truly at the front entrance. The 'investigating' authorities knew all this within hours of the assassination, and they got to work quickly to bury their suspect's alibi.

The reasons you have thus far put forward for disallowing Mr Oswald's own claims and siding with the cover-up are predicated on making him Mr Conspicuous when you need him to be Mr Conspicuous, and Mr Invisible when you need him to be Mr Invisible. Not gonna wash!

 Thumb1:

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2020, 06:23:16 AM »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2020, 09:53:51 PM »
Thank you for this error-riddled essay, Mr O'Meara, which amounts to little more than an extended exercise in missing the point!  Thumb1:

We agree that Mr Lovelady can be seen in Darnell, talking to (probably) Ms Calvery--------------




Now for the problems!

1. Sorry, but this large man is not Mr Shelley--------------



-------------try as you might to convince yourself that it is by restricting yourself to a frame showing him profile... (nice try though!)

2. Mr Shelley's own same-day affidavit says he ran into Ms Calvery (whom he knew well BTW!) at the "corner" of the "park". This would put him away from the steps by the time of Darnell, and would (if he's telling the truth in that affidavit) explain why he's nowhere to be found there. (And no, "Multiple witnesses" do NOT "have him at the steps around this time.") What's certain is that he's lying in his WC testimony.

Conclusion? Both Mr Lovelady and Mr Shelley are lying in their WC testimonies with respect to their sighting of Officer Baker and Mr Truly's dash into the building. Which leaves you with a grand total of zero credible witnesses to both men's dash into the building.

Does that mean they didn't dash into the building? No! It just means your argument that the much more inconspicuous Mr Oswald's going unnoticed by most folk on the steps for the v. short time he was out there means he can't have been out there is pitifully weak------------as have all the arguments we've heard to date from Team Keep LHO Away From The Front Entrance!

But now to the question--------------Why would Messrs Lovelady and Shelley lie about their immediate post-assassination movements?

Mr Lovelady's reason is easy to establish, Mr Shelley's not so easy.

Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony).

Mr Oswald told the truth about his movements in these minutes. What has come to light about what he said in custody offers a compelling counter-narrative to the official story. He really did visit the second-floor lunchroom for a coke before the assassination; he really did return to the first floor, where he saw Messrs Jarman and Norman re-enter the building by the back; he really did go outside to watch the P. parade; and he really did have an encounter involving an officer and Mr Truly at the front entrance. The 'investigating' authorities knew all this within hours of the assassination, and they got to work quickly to bury their suspect's alibi.

The reasons you have thus far put forward for disallowing Mr Oswald's own claims and siding with the cover-up are predicated on making him Mr Conspicuous when you need him to be Mr Conspicuous, and Mr Invisible when you need him to be Mr Invisible. Not gonna wash!

 Thumb1:

Oh Alan, you really are the gift that keeps on giving.

Your dissection of my "error riddled essay" deals with one point - that Shelley can't be in Darnell because he's bumping into Gloria Calvery at the "corner" of the "park, even though you agree Calvery is on the steps talking to Lovelady!!!
Absolutely priceless  :D What a devastating critique.
I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll make the concession that Shelley goes out to meet Calvery as per his affidavit then comes back to the steps with her (even though there's no specific mention of this). This places him in Darnell but you don't agree with my candidate for Shelley because he's too "large", by which I assume you mean he's too fat. But the side view of him shows he's quite skinny. Fat from the back and skinny from the side!! Brilliant  ;D
The notion that a skinny chap with broad shoulders and a baggy suit could achieve this fat/skinny effect is way beyond you.

"Which leaves you with a grand total of zero credible witnesses to both men's dash into the building."

Now you've introduced the word credible I agree Shelley and Lovelady are most certainly not that but Sanders and Truly are but you don't include Truly as a witness because he's involved in the dash with Baker!!!  :D :D :D : What impeccable logic!


"Mr Lovelady is hiding the fact-------which he was not yet so anxious to hide when he spoke with Mr Jarman shortly after the assassination---------that he witnessed the encounter at the front door between Officer Baker, Mr Oswald and Mr Truly.

That's right-----------------the encounter which DPD were happily telling the world about later that day (before everyone realized that it gave Mr Oswald an alibi and needed to be swapped out with a makey-uppey lunchroom encounter)! Yep, the selfsame encounter which Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz about in custody (as per Postal Inspector Holmes' testimony)."


 ??? I won't even ask you to provide one scrap of evidence to support this psychedelically wild pile of tripe. Which reminds me, where's the self-anointed fact-checker in residence? How come you get away with this nonsense without feeling his wrath. It's almost like you're on the same team!

"The reasons you have thus far put forward for disallowing Mr Oswald's own claims and siding with the cover-up are predicated on making him Mr Conspicuous when you need him to be Mr Conspicuous, and Mr Invisible when you need him to be Mr Invisible. Not gonna wash!"

I have consistently maintained Oswald's behaviour made him conspicuous. Show me one post I've made that refers to the antisocial wife-beating creep as "invisible". (You can't include me pointing out that not one witness places him on the steps at the time of the assassination and in your case, unlike mine, 'not one witness' means not one witness, credible or otherwise).

Please keep up the good work  Thumb1:

 

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