Author Topic: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )  (Read 17132 times)

Offline Duncan MacRae

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Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« on: July 09, 2020, 08:56:03 AM »
( Part 1 ) is viewable at https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2549.0.html

Further discussion to be continued in this thread.


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2020, 07:10:57 PM »
"Yeah, he worked with us and he didn't associate with us too much. He was kind of quiet. He didn't like to talk too much to us or anything...

We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds."                        Danny Arce


"...he was awful quiet."  Mrs D. Baker

"Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe nobody knew him too well.
You might say he wouldn't have too much to say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself..."    Jack Dougherty
 


"Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He never had too much to say."      Charles Givens

No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so I didn't.   Harold Norman

If there is one constant in this labyrinthine mess it is the almost universal description of Oswald as a quiet loner who didn't talk and when he did it was a barely audible mumble. Someone who hated being with other people and when he was would have his head buried in a newspaper as a way of avoiding unnecessary contact with those around him. To most he was just quiet and withdrawn but to anyone who tried to interact with him he was extremely anti-social:

"Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald ?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. He never replied to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would."

"Every time I went by him I would speak to him, say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze..."      Geneva Hine


Imagine trying to interact with someone who refuses to acknowledge your existence. How insulting and aggressive is that? Even when he did respond it would be as inaudible mumble:

"Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that sort?
 Mr. PIPER. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him.
 Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him
 Mr. PIPER. Yes.
 Mr. BALL. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember?
 Mr. PIPER. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and he would just keep walking."     Eddie Piper


It was generally agreed he wasn't a "People Person"

"At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone."       Mrs Robert Reid

But now we're supposed to believe that, because it was a sunny day and the President was passing by, Oswald was out on the steps with the rest gang chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it."     William Shelley


I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues who he believed were all beneath him. So much so he wouldn't even pretend to make so much as the slightest effort to show any mannersl. He was so convinced of his superiority he could treat those around him like the dirt he thought they were. Ironically, his quietness didn't make him invisible, quite the contrary, in the tight-knit, gossip-prone, enclosed world of the TSBD he would have stood out head and shoulders above everyone else.
To believe this socially incompetent, arrogant loner would spend one second in the company of his work colleagues if he didn't have to is absurd. If Oswald watched the motorcade it was from some dark quiet corner where nobody else would think to be.

"I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working. Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone. He just went about his work."            Bonnie Ray Williams


Mind you it was a lovely day and Jackie did look gorgeous in pink.
Whats that? Not one witness put him on the steps that day? Not one of those stood with him or the many coming back up the steps? Not one?
You do surprise me.

WUP   ???

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2020, 07:20:45 PM »
If there is one constant in this labyrinthine mess it is the almost universal description of Oswald as a quiet loner who didn't talk and when he did it was a barely audible mumble.

Exactly.  Which is why it's comical that LNers consider it "evidence of guilt" that he didn't gab about what happened with everybody he encountered after that.

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But now we're supposed to believe that, because it was a sunny day and the President was passing by, Oswald was out on the steps with the rest gang chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley:

We are?  Who suggested that Oswald was "chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley"?

Quote
I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues who he believed were all beneath him.

Or he was just a shy introvert.  Where do you get "contempt"?

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2020, 09:08:38 PM »

We are?  Who suggested that Oswald was "chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley"?


I've noticed you are really pedantic about little details and I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of sarcasm. Sarcasm can be seen as saying something that  is completely the opposite of what you actually mean as a way to emphasise what you actually mean. To clarify - I'm not actually asking you to believe that Oswald is out front with all his work colleagues interacting in a positive way with them as if he was a really sociable, easy-going guy. I'm actually saying the opposite thing. I honestly thought this would be totally clear as the whole post up to that moment was a litany of testimonial evidence demonstrating how Oswald was perceived as, for want of a better word, unsociable. Statement after statement clearly demonstrating (or so I thought) that Oswald didn't like the company of his work colleagues. As I thought it was blindingly obvious, in the light of the substantial amount of evidence on display, that Oswald would rather blow his own brains out than spend time with his work colleagues, I made up a non-existent, sarcastic scenario to emphasise this point. (when I say "blow his own brains out" this is not sarcasm, this is a 'figure of speech' and is not to be taken literally).
The addition of William Shelley in this scenario was an extrapolation made from Oswald's supposed testimony as recorded in Fritz's notes where he specifically singles out William Shelley - "out with Bill Shelley in front"
The bit at the end where I say "Mind you it was a lovely day and Jackie did look gorgeous in pink" is also sarcasm. I'll keep it to a minimum if future.

"Where do you get "contempt"?"

If you were to approach a work colleague and said "Good Morning" in a friendly way and that person, even though they heard you, didn't react in any way. They just blanked your existence. What word do you use for that? I use 'contempt'.

"Or he was just a shy introvert"

You believe the testimonies of all those work colleagues are describing a shy person? If a person is shy you use the word 'shy' to describe them. Show me one example, from the copious amount of testimony about Oswald, where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'.
Oswald in an antisocial, arrogant loser.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2020, 09:45:34 PM »
I've noticed you are really pedantic about little details and I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of sarcasm.

Yes, but I read your "sarcastic" screed as trying to make the case that Oswald couldn't possibly be standing out front because he was anti-social, which is ridiculous because you don't have to be social to stand and watch something with other people present.

And yes, "little details" are important to get right.  Especially when someone misrepresents the details in order to state things as facts that are not established as facts.  Like Lovelady and Shelley "lying" about how long it took them to leave the steps.

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If you were to approach a work colleague and said "Good Morning" in a friendly way and that person, even though they heard you, didn't react in any way. They just blanked your existence. What word do you use for that? I use 'contempt'.

Well, since you asked, "contempt" is the last word I would use.  Perhaps if they sneered at me and said "what's it to you?" or if they "sarcastically" said caustic things like "I wonder if you're familiar with the concept".  But not saying anything?  I would assume that it's someone who isn't into "chatting away with strangers" about how good the morning is.

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You believe the testimonies of all those work colleagues are describing a shy person? If a person is shy you use the word 'shy' to describe them. Show me one example, from the copious amount of testimony about Oswald, where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'.

George Bouhe: 

"They were both very shy in the beginning, and to break the ice I used the age-old method of starting conversation on the subject in which the other person is interested, and since I was born in St. Petersburg, and according to newspaper reports and what you hear, Marina spent many, many years, or was even brought up in St. Petersburg."

Mrs. Clyde Livingston:

"He was a quiet and rather shy type of student, did not know any of the other students, and it took him a long time to get acquainted with the other students."

Daniel Patrick Powers:

"I think-he was a quiet-if you want to call it-a reserved individual that had feminine characteristics, that to me, he was shy, SO to speak, and a lot of times you felt sorry because the rest of the guys were most of the time picking on him ; this goes back to the Ozzie Rabbit incident."

Rose Schambra:

"She stated she found OSWALD to be a quiet and shy person who never seemed to converse with anyone"

Aron Vigushin:

“He was a shy man…. The questions he asked were related to music, astronomy, Russian language. But he didn’t talk too much about himself…. He never talked politics.”

Priscilla Johnson McMillan:

"rather tentative, rather shy, not bombastic at all and not seeking to make a big impression."

Renatus Hartogs:

"It was difficult to penetrate the emotional wall behind which this boy hides and he provided us with sufficient clues, permitting us to see intense anxiety, shyness, feelings of awkwardness and insecurity as the main reasons for his withdrawal tendencies and solitary habits."

Ok, your turn.  Name somebody who knew him who used the word "contemptuous" to describe him.

Buell Frazier was the coworker he knew the best and Frazier never described him as contemptuous or that he acted superior to others. 

Mr. BALL - On the way back and forth did you talk very much to each other?
Mr. FRAZIER - No. sir: not very much. lie is. probably in your line of business you have probably seen a lot of guys who talk a lot and some don't and he was one of these types that just didn't talk. And I have seen, you know, I am not very old but I have seen a lot of guys in my time, just going to school, different boys and girls, some talk a lot and some don't, so I didn't think anything strange about that.
About the only time you could get anything out of the talking was about babies, you know, he had one and he was expecting another, that was one way he had him get that job because his wife was pregnant and I would always get something out of it when I asked him about the babies because it seemed he was very fond of children because when I asked him he chuckled and told me about what he was doing about the babies over the weekend and sometimes we would talk about the weather, and sometimes he would go to work and it would be cloudy in the morning and it would come out that afternoon after work, sometimes during the day and it would turn to be just one of the prettiest days you would want anywhere, and he would say some comment about that, but not very much.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 09:47:52 PM by John Iacoletti »

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2020, 11:23:21 PM »
Apart from Frazier, who doesn't use the word 'shy', which of those people in your list are his colleagues, as I specifically stated - "Show me one example ... where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'."
Everything about my original post was about how his work colleagues described him, how antisocial almost everyone found him to be (not that anyone used the word 'antisocial', that is my own interpretation of how he is being described). The point I was clearly making is that Oswald was highly unlikely to be out front with his colleagues as he clearly did not enjoy their company (to put it mildly). The context concerned Oswald and his relationship with his colleagues in general. Once again you appear to have heard what you want to hear, twisted it around to suit your own purposes and 'scored a point' in an argument you have invented.
Is it only me you do this to because it is starting to get bothersome? I don't mind being critiqued, challenged and shown where I'm going wrong but there's something unsettling about your attention.
As for your use of the word 'shy' in relation to Oswald, I find that contemptuous.

By the way, which of the many witnesses on the TSBD steps places Oswald there?

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2020, 12:28:41 AM »
Apart from Frazier, who doesn't use the word 'shy', which of those people in your list are his colleagues, as I specifically stated - "Show me one example ... where one of his colleagues uses the word 'shy'."

 ::)

Does it have some kind of relevance that it's people he works with?  What, he was only an "contemptuous, arrogant loser" while working?

Quote
Everything about my original post was about how his work colleagues described him, how antisocial almost everyone found him to be (not that anyone used the word 'antisocial', that is my own interpretation of how he is being described).

Exactly.  You're projecting your attitudes onto them.  I notice you avoided my question.  Did any of his work colleagues describe him as arrogant and contemptuous?

Quote
The point I was clearly making is that Oswald was highly unlikely to be out front with his colleagues as he clearly did not enjoy their company (to put it mildly).

And the point I made is that you do not have to socialize with anybody to stand outside and watch a parade go by.  Who said he did not enjoy their company, anyway?  Or is that more "interpretation"?

Quote
The context concerned Oswald and his relationship with his colleagues in general. Once again you appear to have heard what you want to hear, twisted it around to suit your own purposes and 'scored a point' in an argument you have invented.

And you appear to make meaningless distinctions merely to avoid being accountable for your sweeping generalizations.

Quote
Is it only me you do this to because it is starting to get bothersome? I don't mind being critiqued, challenged and shown where I'm going wrong but there's something unsettling about your attention.

As I said, I'm bothered when people state their personal assumptions and conjecture as fact.  It's nothing personal.

Quote
As for your use of the word 'shy' in relation to Oswald, I find that contemptuous.

Why, when several people who knew him described him like that?  Did you know him?

Quote
By the way, which of the many witnesses on the TSBD steps places Oswald there?

None that I know of.  If that's your argument, then you could have dispensed with all the psychobabble.  Is somebody likely to notice a shy, nonsocial person standing *behind* them at the moment a parade is passing in front of them?  I would say no.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 12:38:58 AM by John Iacoletti »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2020, 01:27:47 AM »
"Yeah, he worked with us and he didn't associate with us too much. He was kind of quiet. He didn't like to talk too much to us or anything...

We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds."                        Danny Arce


"...he was awful quiet."  Mrs D. Baker

"Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe nobody knew him too well.
You might say he wouldn't have too much to say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself..."    Jack Dougherty
 


"Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He never had too much to say."      Charles Givens

No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so I didn't.   Harold Norman

If there is one constant in this labyrinthine mess it is the almost universal description of Oswald as a quiet loner who didn't talk and when he did it was a barely audible mumble. Someone who hated being with other people and when he was would have his head buried in a newspaper as a way of avoiding unnecessary contact with those around him. To most he was just quiet and withdrawn but to anyone who tried to interact with him he was extremely anti-social:

"Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald ?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. He never replied to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would."

"Every time I went by him I would speak to him, say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze..."      Geneva Hine


Imagine trying to interact with someone who refuses to acknowledge your existence. How insulting and aggressive is that? Even when he did respond it would be as inaudible mumble:

"Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that sort?
 Mr. PIPER. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him.
 Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him
 Mr. PIPER. Yes.
 Mr. BALL. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember?
 Mr. PIPER. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and he would just keep walking."     Eddie Piper


It was generally agreed he wasn't a "People Person"

"At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone."       Mrs Robert Reid

But now we're supposed to believe that, because it was a sunny day and the President was passing by, Oswald was out on the steps with the rest gang chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it."     William Shelley


I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues who he believed were all beneath him. So much so he wouldn't even pretend to make so much as the slightest effort to show any mannersl. He was so convinced of his superiority he could treat those around him like the dirt he thought they were. Ironically, his quietness didn't make him invisible, quite the contrary, in the tight-knit, gossip-prone, enclosed world of the TSBD he would have stood out head and shoulders above everyone else.
To believe this socially incompetent, arrogant loner would spend one second in the company of his work colleagues if he didn't have to is absurd. If Oswald watched the motorcade it was from some dark quiet corner where nobody else would think to be.

Thank you, Mr O'Meara, for lending powerful credence to the idea that the quiet loner Mr Oswald

-------------would have been uncomfortable standing out on the steps with the other folks awaiting the motorcade
-------------would have instead remained inside, periodically checking on the scene outside by looking through the glass front door
-------------would have left it until the last moment to go through that door, take his position in a dark quiet corner and watch JFK pass
-------------would have gone all but unnoticed by those already standing out there, whose attention was by then focused entirely on the motorcade (and, a few seconds later, the pandemonium).
 
Thumb1:

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2020, 10:55:27 AM »
::)

Does it have some kind of relevance that it's people he works with?  What, he was only an "contemptuous, arrogant loser" while working?


Yes John, the whole point I'm making revolves around the relationship between Oswald and his work colleagues as revealed in the various testimonies. He is not stood on the steps with friends from his school days or old teachers. He is not stood on the front steps with old army buddies or family. In the scenario being suggested he is stood outside with work colleagues, specifically Bill Shelley, watching the motorcade pass by. The point I was making referred to the unlikelihood Oswald would have joined in with such a thing (obviously you twisted it into me saying it couldn't possibly have happened but this has become a feature of your campaign to misrepresent what I'm saying). I cannot explain it any clearer than this - the point being I was making is absolutely relevant, and specific to, his work colleagues. It is unlikely Oswald would have joined his work colleagues on the steps because of his documented relationship with his work colleagues. How this was not clear to you I don't know, I can only assume you don't read my posts correctly.

"Exactly.  You're projecting your attitudes onto them."

I use the word 'antisocial' to describe Oswald's behaviour and you accuse me of 'projecting my attitudes'. Here is the dictionary definition of the word 'antisocial' -"not sociable or wanting the company of others". And you don't think that describes your friend Oswald? I'll only use a few of quotes to make my point:

"... he didn't associate with us too much ... He didn't like to talk too much to us"
" Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone."
"We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds."

These quotes, and others, from his work colleagues clearly describe someone who is unsociable and not "wanting the company of others" but I have no doubt in your twisting misrepresentation you will find a way to disagree. I stand by the use of the word 'antisocial', not as something I'm projecting but as an accurate description of Oswald's behaviour as described by his work colleagues. I don't expect you to retract your accusation.

" Did any of his work colleagues describe him as arrogant and contemptuous?"

No John, not one of his colleagues used the words 'contemptuous' or 'arrogant' to describe him. But I never said they did, those are my words to describe him (more misrepresentation). I was struck by the testimony of Geneva Hines, who specifically describes Oswald as 'unfriendly', and in which she described trying to interact with him by saying "Good Morning" or "Hello", the usual pleasantries normal people use on a daily basis, and how he would literally blank her existence, as if she wasn't worth responding to. I used the word 'contempt' to describe this behaviour. The dictionary definition of 'contempt'  - "the feeling that a person or a thing is worthless or beneath consideration".
This is the perfect word to describe Oswald. In your defence of him you have this to say -"Well, since you asked, "contempt" is the last word I would use. Perhaps if they sneered at me and said "what's it to you?" or if they "sarcastically" said caustic things like "I wonder if you're familiar with the concept".  But not saying anything?"
I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of 'contempt'. It appears not. To treat someone with contempt is to treat them as if they're not there - exactly how Oswald treats Hines.

"Is somebody likely to notice a shy, nonsocial person standing *behind* them at the moment a parade is passing in front of them?  I would say no."

It seems you would like to believe Oswald's unwillingness to talk to people makes him invisible but this is not the case. In her excellent 'Living History' interview, Karen Westbrook Scranton makes the following point:

"He wasn't terribly friendly but we, being teenagers, we saw this guy, all alone and we felt sorry for him. We just thought 'He doesn't have any friends' or 'He doesn't make friends very easily', so he was very much in our scope even though there wasn't any kind of a friendship between any of us." (13:22 to 13:41)

Oswald's antisocial behaviour made him stand out in the TSBD. He wasn't some invisible figure standing behind everyone (how do you know where he was standing by the way?) and you completely ignore all the people coming up the steps because it suits you to do so.

My point, all along, was that I felt it very unlikely the antisocial and unfriendly Oswald would join his colleagues on the steps. The fact that not one witness places him there strengthens this observation. Oswald was not invisible, his antisocial behaviour made him stand out.
You seem determined to place him on the steps for the motorcade, you must have some very strong evidence for doing so. I will keep looking until I find it.





Offline Alan J. Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2020, 06:53:47 PM »
To Mr. Iacoletti’s point/observation at, quote, “Behind”

It certainly correlates with the time-sequence movements of Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman’s return inside the building at the rear entrance at 12:25PM, where the wrongly accused actually described the tandem walking together from his vantage point in the Domino Room (first floor lunchroom).  It would be virtually impossible for anyone, let alone the wrongly accused, if they really were six stories up in the front of the building to guess, let alone actually see, anyone else return into the building six stories below at the rear of the building.

By the time the wrongly accused left the Domino Room and went out the front-entrance to view the presidential-parade, given his reluctance to engage and/or mingle, it would be characteristic of him to take up a rear position "Behind" others, drawing less attention as possible.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 07:02:39 PM by Alan J. Ford »

 

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