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Author Topic: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories  (Read 27906 times)

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #144 on: July 19, 2020, 12:50:31 AM »
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The WC allowed Roger Craig to testify (6 H 260-273), but it rejected his account. Decker falsely claimed that Craig was never in the office with Oswald and never spoke with Oswald.

When did Decker make that claim and whose office was he referring to?

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #144 on: July 19, 2020, 12:50:31 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #145 on: July 19, 2020, 12:53:34 AM »

Quote from: Jerry Freeman on July 18, 2020, 09:53:51 PM
Now...the devoted followers of the WC here do call everybody a liar and everything else that subscribe not to the hang it on Oswald mantra.
 
Yeap, WC apologists have been doing that for a long time.

Didn't you just call Decker a liar?  Although, I think you are confusing Decker with Fritz. So, you're calling Fritz a liar.

Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #146 on: July 19, 2020, 01:34:31 AM »
Why suppose that Cairns was correct

Because Dr. Cairns was one of the only three pathologists who actually got to handle the fragment and to study it up close. Because the two other pathologists who handled and studied the fragment agreed that the fragment was occipital bone. Because Dr. Mantik has established that it was occipital bone, and he notes that there is actually support for this placement on the skull x-rays. Because dozens of witnesses, in three different locations, said there was a large wound in the right-rear part of the head. Because the wound diagrams drawn for the HSCA and the ARRB show a large wound in the back of the head. Etc., etc., etc.

I notice you simply ignored the points that I quoted from Dr. Mantik's article "The Harper Fragment Revisited." Are you ever going to deal with the fact that Dr. Riley based his interpretation of the Harper fragment on the mistaken belief that occipital bone does not contain vascular grooves or foramina?

when we know for a fact that he was not?

You "know" no such thing. You clearly have not read any of the scholarly scientific analyses on the fragment that show it was occipital bone.

Not only do we have the autopsy report that tells us that he was incorrect,

LOL!!!  Are you talking about the "autopsy report" that does not mention the 6.5 mm fragment that later magically appeared on the skull x-rays?  Are you talking about the "autopsy report" that says there was no frontal bone missing, when we now know that the two outside experts hired by the HSCA FPP both said the skull x-rays show missing frontal bone?  The HSCA's trajectory expert, Dr. Thomas Canning of NASA, also said he saw frontal bone missing in the skull x-rays. Dr. John Fitzpatrick, a forensic radiologist hired by the ARRB, told the ARRB that the skull x-rays show significant frontal bone missing. And Dr. Mantik has confirmed that the skull x-rays show frontal bone missing.

By the way, Dr. Finck told General Bloomberg that frontal bone was missing, and Dr. Boswell told the ARRB that frontal bone was missing. The diagram that Boswell drew during the autopsy also shows frontal bone missing. But, gee, the "autopsy report" says nothing about missing frontal bone--perhaps because the autopsy photos that show Kennedy's face show no frontal bone missing, nor do they show any visible damage to the frontal bone area.


You see, if the skull x-rays show frontal bone missing, then the autopsy photos that show JFK's face cannot be authentic.

Ignoring these canyon-sized contradictions and impossibilities in the autopsy evidence won't make them go away.

we have the autopsy photos, autopsy X-Rays,

You still have not read any of the links I've provided on the hard scientific evidence that the autopsy photos and x-rays have been altered, have you? Are you ever going to take a stab at explaining why there is no frontal damage to JFK's head in the autopsy photos that show his face when the skull x-rays show missing frontal bone? Are you ever going to explain the optical density measurements, done by three medical doctors with backgrounds in radiology, that show that a patch was placed over the right-rear part of the head in an effort to conceal the large wound there?

Are you ever going to explain the dozens of witnesses, in three different locations, who saw the large right-rear head wound--were they all "mistaken," even the mortician who prepared the skull and the rest of the body for burial?


and the Zapruder film that we can view for ourselves.

The Zapruder film shows an explosion occurring to the right of JFK's right ear, damage that is nowhere to be seen in the autopsy photos that show JFK's face and the side of his head. And would you care to explain the round black spot that covers the right rear of JFK's head for several frames until that part of the head is no longer visible? What's going on with that? Jackie said she was holding the "back" of her husband's head together. Clint Hill, who saw the large head wound from less than 4 feet away, and who saw it again at Bethesda, said it was in the right-rear part of the head.

We also have the fact the the fragment was found well ahead of where the limo was at the time of the head shot.

Here we go again: You go running to pseudo-research sites like McAdams' website but you don't bother to check any sites that present an opposing view. No, it is not a "fact" that the Harper fragment was found "well ahead of where the limo was" when the Z313 head shot occurred. This claim is not even close to being a "fact." For starters, according to the first two Dealey Plaza reenactment surveys, the fragment was actually found well behind the location of the car at the time of the Z313 head shot.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 02:05:35 AM by Michael T. Griffith »

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #146 on: July 19, 2020, 01:34:31 AM »


Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #147 on: July 19, 2020, 01:56:32 AM »

Because Dr. Cairns was one of the only three pathologists who actually got to handle the fragment and to study it up close. Because the two other pathologists who handled and studied the fragment agreed that the fragment was occipital bone. Because Dr. Mantik has established that it was occipital bone, and he notes that there is actually support for this placement on the skull x-rays. Because dozens of witnesses, in three different locations, said there was a large wound in the right-rear part of the head. Because the wound diagrams drawn for the HSCA and the ARRB show a large wound in the back of the head. Etc., etc., etc.

I notice you simply ignored the points that I quoted from Dr. Mantik's article "The Harper Fragment Revisited."

You "know" no such thing. You clearly have not read any of the scholarly scientific analyses on the fragment that show it was occipital bone.

LOL!!!  Are you talking about the "autopsy report" that does not mention the 6.5 mm fragment that later magically appeared on the skull x-rays?  Are you talking about the "autopsy report" that says there was no frontal bone missing, when we now know that the two outside experts hired by the HSCA FPP both said the skull x-rays show missing frontal bone?  The HSCA's trajectory expert, Dr. Thomas Canning of NASA, also said he saw frontal bone missing in the skull x-rays. (And Dr. Mantik has confirmed that the skull x-rays show missing frontal bone.)

By the way, Dr. Finck told General Bloomberg that frontal bone was missing, and Dr. Boswell told the ARRB that frontal bone was missing. The diagram that Boswell drew during the autopsy also shows frontal bone missing. But, gee, the "autopsy report" says nothing about missing frontal bone--perhaps because the autopsy photos that show Kennedy's face show no frontal bone missing, nor do they show any visible damage to the frontal bone area.


Ignoring these canyon-sized contradictions and impossibilities in the autopsy evidence won't make them go away.

You still have not read any of the links I've provided on the hard scientific evidence that the autopsy photos and x-rays have been altered, have you? Are you ever going to take a stab at explaining why there is no frontal damage to JFK's head in the autopsy photos that show his face when the skull x-rays show missing frontal bone? Are you ever going to explain the optical density measurements, done by three medical doctors with backgrounds in radiology, that show that a patch was placed over the right-rear part of the head in an effort to conceal the large wound there?

Are you ever going to explain the dozens of witnesses, in three different locations, who saw the large right-rear head wound--were they all "mistaken," even the mortician who prepared the skull and the rest of the body for burial?


The Zapruder film shows an explosion occurring to the right of JFK's right ear, damage that is nowhere to be seen in the autopsy photos that show JFK's face and the side of his head. And would you care to explain the round black spot that covers the right rear of JFK's head for several frames until that part of the head is no longer visible? What's going on with that? Jackie said she was holding the "back" of her husband's head together. Clint Hill, who saw the large head wound from less than 4 feet away, and who saw it again at Bethesda, said it was in the right-rear part of the head.

Here we go again: You go running to pseudo-research sites like McAdams' website but you don't bother to check any sites that present an opposing view. No, it is not a "fact" that the Harper fragment was found "well ahead of where the limo was" when the Z313 head shot occurred. This claim is not even close to being a "fact." For starters, according to the first two Dealey Plaza reenactment surveys, the fragment was actually found well behind the location of the car at the time of the Z313 head shot.


Dear Mike T. Griffith,

Why do you call McAdams a "pseudo research site"?

When it comes to the JFK assassination, how do you define "research," anyway?

How about compiling facts that other people have already researched and proved, and sharing them in a comprehensive way?

How about rebutting tinfoil conspiracy theories?  Isn't that worthwile?

Do you consider yourself a "JFK assassination researcher"?

How so?

--  MWT  ;)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 01:59:47 AM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #148 on: July 19, 2020, 02:04:38 AM »
Dear Mike T. Griffith,

Why do you call McAdams a "pseudo research site"?

When it comes to the JFK assassination, how do you define "research," anyway?

How about compiling facts that other people have already researched and proved, and sharing them in a comprehensive way?

How about rebutting tinfoil conspiracy theories?  Isn't that worthwile?

Do you consider yourself a "JFK assassination researcher"?

How so?

--  MWT  ;)

So you're just going to ignore all the evidence that I presented and resort to ad hominem attacks?  I am guessing that you made no effort to answer a single point that I made because you don't know how to answer any of them.

I am also guessing that you, like Nickerson, simply refuse to read any of the scholarly scientific studies on the Harper fragment and on the autopsy photos and x-rays that show that the Harper fragment was occipital bone and that the autopsy photos and x-rays have been altered--and that the autopsy materials don't even agree with themselves (e.g., the intact frontal area on the autopsy photos that show the face vs. the autopsy x-rays that show frontal bone missing--not just damaged, but missing.

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #148 on: July 19, 2020, 02:04:38 AM »


Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #149 on: July 19, 2020, 02:09:01 AM »
So you're just going to ignore all the evidence that I presented and resort to ad hominem attacks?  I am guessing that you made no effort to answer a single point that I made because you don't know how to answer any of them.

I am also guessing that you, like Nickerson, simply refuse to read any of the scholarly scientific studies on the Harper fragment and on the autopsy photos and x-rays that show that the Harper fragment was occipital bone and that the autopsy photos and x-rays have been altered--and that the autopsy materials don't even agree with themselves (e.g., the intact frontal area on the autopsy photos that show the face vs. the autopsy x-rays that show frontal bone missing--not just damaged, but missing.


Oh, you poor rhetorical thing, you.

--  MWT  ;)

Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #150 on: July 19, 2020, 02:20:40 AM »
Oh, you poor rhetorical thing, you.

--  MWT  ;)

I'm not the one ducking and dodging. You did not even try to answer a single fact that I presented, and you obviously have no interest in reading both sides of the issue. You will only read sources that you know will support what you already want to believe.

By the way, you asked me about my negative view of McAdams' website. Here is article on the subject that I wrote in 2012:

https://miketgriffith.com/files/vsmcadams.htm
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 02:21:36 AM by Michael T. Griffith »

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #150 on: July 19, 2020, 02:20:40 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories
« Reply #151 on: July 19, 2020, 02:23:57 AM »

Because Dr. Cairns was one of the only three pathologists who actually got to handle the fragment and to study it up close. Because the two other pathologists who handled and studied the fragment agreed that the fragment was occipital bone. Because Dr. Mantik has established that it was occipital bone, and he notes that there is actually support for this placement on the skull x-rays. Because dozens of witnesses, in three different locations, said there was a large wound in the right-rear part of the head. Because the wound diagrams drawn for the HSCA and the ARRB show a large wound in the back of the head. Etc., etc., etc.

I notice you simply ignored the points that I quoted from Dr. Mantik's article "The Harper Fragment Revisited." Are you ever going to deal with the fact that Dr. Riley based his interpretation of the Harper fragment on the mistaken belief that occipital bone does not contain vascular grooves or foramina?

Who were the other two pathologists. Mantik hasn't established that it was occipital bone. No credible radiologists and pathologists take him seriously.

Quote
You "know" no such thing. You clearly have not read any of the scholarly scientific analyses on the fragment that show it was occipital bone.

I've read the autopsy report and the numerous statements and testimonies of the Bethesda pathologists. I've seen the available autopsy photos and X-Rays. I've viewed the Zapruder film too may times to count. I know without any doubt whatsoever that it was not occipital bone.

Quote
LOL!!!  Are you talking about the "autopsy report" that does not mention the 6.5 mm fragment that later magically appeared on the skull x-rays?  Are you talking about the "autopsy report" that says there was no frontal bone missing, when we now know that the two outside experts hired by the HSCA FPP both said the skull x-rays show missing frontal bone?  The HSCA's trajectory expert, Dr. Thomas Canning of NASA, also said he saw frontal bone missing in the skull x-rays. Dr. John Fitzpatrick, a forensic radiologist hired by the ARRB, told the ARRB that the skull x-rays show significant frontal bone missing. And Dr. Mantik has confirmed that the skull x-rays show frontal bone missing.

By the way, Dr. Finck told General Bloomberg that frontal bone was missing, and Dr. Boswell told the ARRB that frontal bone was missing. The diagram that Boswell drew during the autopsy also shows frontal bone missing. But, gee, the "autopsy report" says nothing about missing frontal bone--perhaps because the autopsy photos that show Kennedy's face show no frontal bone missing, nor do they show any visible damage to the frontal bone area.


You see, if the skull x-rays show frontal bone missing, then the autopsy photos that show JFK's face cannot be authentic.

Ignoring these canyon-sized contradictions and impossibilities in the autopsy evidence won't make them go away.

You still have not read any of the links I've provided on the hard scientific evidence that the autopsy photos and x-rays have been altered, have you? Are you ever going to take a stab at explaining why there is no frontal damage to JFK's head in the autopsy photos that show his face when the skull x-rays show missing frontal bone? Are you ever going to explain the optical density measurements, done by three medical doctors with backgrounds in radiology, that show that a patch was placed over the right-rear part of the head in an effort to conceal the large wound there?

The "6.5 mm" fragment isn't mentioned in the autopsy report but Humes talked about it in his WC testimony. He referred to it as "a rather sizable fragment visible by X-ray just above the right eye". As far as frontal bone being missing, you're going to have to be more specific. What part of the frontal bone was missing and how much?  The only frontal damage to the head was above the right eye , where the bullet exited.

Quote
Are you ever going to explain the dozens of witnesses, in three different locations, who saw the large right-rear head wound--were they all "mistaken," even the mortician who prepared the skull and the rest of the body for burial?

Witnesses who reported seeing a large wound in the back of the head were mistaken. The autopsy photos, X-Rays, and the Zapruder film do not lie.

Quote
The Zapruder film shows an explosion occurring to the right of JFK's right ear, damage that is nowhere to be seen in the autopsy photos that show JFK's face and the side of his head. And would you care to explain the round black spot that covers the right rear of JFK's head for several frames until that part of the head is no longer visible? What's going on with that? Jackie said she was holding the "back" of her husband's head together. Clint Hill, who saw the large head wound from less than 4 feet away, and who saw it again at Bethesda, said it was in the right-rear part of the head.

What we see in the Zapruder film is also seen in the autopsy photos. I don't know what you mean by round black spot that covers the right rear of JFK's head for several frames until that part of the head is no longer visible.

Quote
Here we go again: You go running to pseudo-research sites like McAdams' website but you don't bother to check any sites that present an opposing view. No, it is not a "fact" that the Harper fragment was found "well ahead of where the limo was" when the Z313 head shot occurred. This claim is not even close to being a "fact." For starters, according to the first two Dealey Plaza reenactment surveys, the fragment was actually found well behind the location of the car at the time of the Z313 head shot.


I'm sorry, who is it that you don't believe? Millicent Cranor or William Harper? Or perhaps both?

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Cranor%20Millicent/Item%2001.pdf

"This author wrote to Mr. Harper asking him to indicate the exact spot on an enclosed map of Dealey Plaza. He marked a place near the underpass that was nearly 100 feet southwest of where Kennedy was shot in the head."54

54. Letter to Milicent Cranor from William A. Harper, December 13.
1997