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Author Topic: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories  (Read 1873 times)

Online Joe Elliott

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You are getting that (1/18th/second or 55 milliseconds) from Chambers. He is wrong. He has Kennedy being hit at Z313 and then noticeable moving backward in the next frame. Kennedy was hit between Z312 and Z313 and the ITEK report has Z315 as being the frame where Kennedy's backward movement is clearly in progress. So, the response time was 110 milliseconds or more.

Hello Tim

You are right. I myself refer to it as 55 millisecond delay, but it was probably longer. But I don’t know about a full 110 milliseconds.

Defining time as z-312.0 – the camera shutter first opens, z-312.5 – the shutter closes, the head was probably struck about z-312.6, giving the head about 45 milliseconds to move an inch forward by z-313.0. By z-313.5, it was now just over 2 inches forward. By z314.0, it might still be 2 inches forward, it is hard to tell. But by 314.5, the head definitely started moving backwards and had already moved half an inch.

I would guess the backwards movement may have started over the interval z-312.6-314.0, or 75 milliseconds. Perhaps over the interval z-312.5-314.0 or 80 milliseconds. But not a lot more than that. If the delay was a full 110 milliseconds, by the times of z-314.5, the head would still have been 2 inches ahead of its z-312.5 position.

Joe

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Hello Tim

You are right. I myself refer to it as 55 millisecond delay, but it was probably longer. But I don’t know about a full 110 milliseconds.

Defining time as z-312.0 – the camera shutter first opens, z-312.5 – the shutter closes, the head was probably struck about z-312.6, giving the head about 45 milliseconds to move an inch forward by z-313.0. By z-313.5, it was now just over 2 inches forward. By z314.0, it might still be 2 inches forward, it is hard to tell. But by 314.5, the head definitely started moving backwards and had already moved half an inch.

I would guess the backwards movement may have started over the interval z-312.6-314.0, or 75 milliseconds. Perhaps over the interval z-312.5-314.0 or 80 milliseconds. But not a lot more than that. If the delay was a full 110 milliseconds, by the times of z-314.5, the head would still have been 2 inches ahead of its z-312.5 position.

Joe

Just to make sure that I'm understanding you right, by Z-314.5 you mean what we know as Z315?

Online Joe Elliott

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Hi Joe,

I'm trying to find the scientific data on the goat reflex time but can't, can you tell me where to find it. Thanks

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscastur.htm

Has the testimony of Larry Sturdivan for the HSCA.

Below he explains the film of the goat shot through the brain back in U. S. Army tests made in 1948.

Mr. STURDIVAN - Let me stop the film here and explain what is going to happen. This goat is standing with his horns taped to a bar, only to preserve the aiming point of the bullet, which will come in from the right this time, not from the left, from the right, will strike the goat between the eyes. The black tape is there only to show the relative motion which we were presuming was going to be small. I should say they were presuming, since this film was taken back around 1948, I believe. The first sequence will be a normal 24-frame-per-second view of this. This is a real time. First, we will observe the neuromuscular reaction, the goat will collapse then, and by the wiggling of his tail and the tenseness of the muscles we will see what I think has sometimes been called the decerebrate rigidity, and that takes place about a second after the shot and then slowly dissipates and you will see the goat slump, obviously dead. The decerebrate reaction and terminus of the decerebrate reaction. Now, this sequence will show the same goat, exactly the same shot, but in this case the movies are taken at 2,400 frames per second. I forgot to mention that the bullet is a .30-caliber military bullet. If I can stop this at an appropriate point. Now, if you will look up at the forehead of the goat you may see a very small white spot, which was not visible on the last frame. If you can't, don't worry about it. What it is is the bullet entering the head of the goat. And if I can make sure that I have it going forward now. Four one-hundredths of a second after that impact then the neuromuscular reaction that I described begins to happen; the back legs go out, under the influence of the powerful muscles of the back legs, the front legs go upward and outward, that back arches, as the powerful back muscles overcome those of the abdomen. That was it. Now, we will show a sequence here which I think will prove my assertion. This goat was shot under identical circumstances as the last one was except he is dead before the shot. The straps that you see are suspending him but he is free to swing. If you pushed on his head he would swing gently back and forth in this rack. The bullet will come in from the right, again moving toward the left. In this case, the bullet is deflected as it goes out of the skull, and impacts on the goat near the spine, and then as you may have been able to see very dimly right behind the goat the bullet emerges from the back. It has deposited another few pound-feet per second of momentum in this goat. And then let me run it on through at real speed so you can see how much displacement that goat is given by the momentum that is deposited by the bullet. If we can bring the house lights up, it will run for another 5 minutes without showing any movement in the goat.

. . .

Mr. FAUNTROY - That explains the explosion?
Mr. STURDIVAN - Yes, sir, the explosion effect and the subsequent neuromuscular reaction that occurs roughly four one-hundredths of a second later.

Online Michael T. Griffith

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It's not just me that denies it. The ITEK panel of photo and film analysis experts denied it as well.

I doubt that Itek said that JFK's head does not move backward at all in Z313. Got a link to that report? I read it years ago but no longer have it.

The HSCA noted that the particulate spray from JFK's head indicates that the explosion began in Z312:

Quote
Fragmentary material from the President's head is seen flying upward and outward in frames 313 and 314. The fragments are already airborne and in motion in frame 313. Extrapolation backwards indicates that the explosion began in frame 312 rather than 313, since this would be the frame nearest to the moment when the fragments left the head. (6 HSCA 27)

I could cite a couple dozen analyses that have determined that JFK's head begins to move backward at Z313. This has been measured. From Z313-314, the head moves backward 0.5-0.6 inches.

Until today, I had never seen anyone question this observation. But, of course, now you realize that you need more time--a lot more time, like close to 100% more time--for your neurospasm-reaction theory to even be remotely possible. So, suddenly you decide that, "oh, well, actually, the backward movement doesn't begin until  . . . Z315"!

And I see Joe Elliott is rejecting Sturdivan's specification of the reaction time in real time and is going with Sturdivan's 2400-fps-based time of 40 milliseconds. I guess real-time reaction time must be ditched to make the neurospasm-reaction theory appear to be possible. Ok, if you want to ignore the real-time time, then find me any evidence that a human neurospasm of that magnitude can occur in 40 milliseconds.



« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 09:03:30 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Online Joe Elliott

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Ah-ha! I knew it! I just knew it! I knew there was something wrong with Joe Elliott’s description of the 1948 U.S. Army ballistics test film of a goat being shot in the head.

. . .

Anyway, to recap: The goat film that Elliott has been citing was not filmed in real time but in 2,400 fps. The real-time film of the same goat and the same test shows that the goat’s reaction did not begin until about 1,000 milliseconds after the bullet hit the skull.

What does Mr. Sturdivan say:

Quote
Mr. STURDIVAN - Let me stop the film here and explain what is going to happen. This goat is standing with his horns taped to a bar, only to preserve the aiming point of the bullet, which will come in from the right this time, not from the left, from the right, will strike the goat between the eyes. The black tape is there only to show the relative motion which we were presuming was going to be small. I should say they were presuming, since this film was taken back around 1948, I believe. The first sequence will be a normal 24-frame-per-second view of this. This is a real time. First, we will observe the neuromuscular reaction, the goat will collapse then, and by the wiggling of his tail and the tenseness of the muscles we will see what I think has sometimes been called the decerebrate rigidity, and that takes place about a second after the shot and then slowly dissipates and you will see the goat slump, obviously dead.

No where does Mr. Sturdivan say that first reaction of the goat is the “decerebrate rigidity”, which he observes happening about one second after the shot. He is saying that the last movement of the goat takes place 1,000 milliseconds after the impact of the bullet.

So, when is the soonest reaction of the goat observed? Later he states:

Quote
Four one-hundredths of a second after that impact then the neuromuscular reaction that I described begins to happen; the back legs go out, under the influence of the powerful muscles of the back legs, the front legs go upward and outward, that back arches, as the powerful back muscles overcome those of the abdomen.

His entire HSCA testimony is on the following website:

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscastur.htm

It doesn’t matter if the film is shot at 24 frames per second or 2,400 frames per second. Four one-hundredths of a second is still four one-hundredths of a second. Or 40 milliseconds. 40 milliseconds after impact, the back legs start to go out.

Ah-ahhh ! ! !


So, yes, I confess. If we define the length of time that the goat starts to react as being the last time the goat moved at all, then the goat reaction time is 1,000 milliseconds. Damm, that is one slow goat. But if we define the length of time that the goat starts to react as being the first time he starts to move, the goat’s reaction time is 40 milliseconds.


If I can define JFK’s reaction time the same way Mr. Griffith does, when the backward movement of JFK stopped, at frame 321, then JFK’s reaction time was 490 milliseconds. Well within the possible reaction time of Dr. Zacharko, Dr. Mantik and all of his other experts.

Ah-ahhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Keep trying, but you haven’t got my goat yet.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 09:37:00 PM by Joe Elliott »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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I doubt that Itek said that JFK's head does not move backward at all in Z313. Got a link to that report? I read it years ago but no longer have it.

The HSCA noted that the particulate spray from JFK's head indicates that the explosion began in Z312:

I could cite a couple dozen analyses that have determined that JFK's head begins to move backward at Z313. This has been measured. From Z313-314, the head moves backward 0.5-0.6 inches.

Until today, I had never seen anyone question this observation. But, of course, now you realize that you need more time--a lot more time, like close to 100% more time--for your neurospasm-reaction theory to even be remotely possible. So, suddenly you decide that, "oh, well, actually, the backward movement doesn't begin until  . . . Z315"!

And I see Joe Elliott is rejecting Sturdivan's specification of the reaction time in real time and is going with Sturdivan's 2400-fps-based time of 40 milliseconds. I guess real-time reaction time must be ditched to make the neurospasm-reaction theory appear to be possible. Ok, if you want to ignore the real-time time, then find me any evidence that a human neurospasm of that magnitude can occur in 40 milliseconds.

The ITEK report does not specifically state that the head does not move backward at all in Z313. . At 314, they have the head 0.3" to the rear of its position at 313. However, they have the shoulder and elbow continuing to move forward, 2 and 3 frames respectively, after the head had reversed direction. It seems that they are giving me plenty of time.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60448&search=itek#relPageId=82&tab=page

Online Michael T. Griffith

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What does Mr. Sturdivan say:

No where does Mr. Sturdivan say that first reaction of the goat is the “decerebrate rigidity”, which he observes happening about one second after the shot. He is saying that the last movement of the goat takes place 1,000 milliseconds after the impact of the bullet.

So, when is the soonest reaction of the goat observed? Later he states:

His entire HSCA testimony is on the following website:

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscastur.htm

It doesn’t matter if the film is shot at 24 frames per second or 2,400 frames per second. Four one-hundredths of a second is still four one-hundredths of a second. Or 40 milliseconds. 40 milliseconds after impact, the back legs start to go out.

Ah-ahhh ! ! !


So, yes, I confess. If we define the length of time that the goat starts to react as being the last time the goat moved at all, then the goat reaction time is 1,000 milliseconds. Damm, that is one slow goat. But if we define the length of time that the goat starts to react as being the first time he starts to move, the goat’s reaction time is 40 milliseconds.

If I can define JFK’s reaction time the same way Mr. Griffith does, when the backward movement of JFK stopped, at frame 321, then JFK’s reaction time was 490 milliseconds. Well within the possible reaction time of Dr. Zacharko, Dr. Mantik and all of his other experts.

Ah-ahhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep trying, but you haven’t got my goat yet.

Oh boy oh boy. Apparently you do not know what "decerebrate" means and what a "decerebrate reaction" is. Apparently you don't understand that when Sturdivan talked about the beginning and end (terminus) of the "decerebrate reaction," he was referring to the neuromuscular reaction. Instead, you're assuming that when Sturdivan said "and that takes places about a second after the shot," he was only talking about half of the actions he had just described, because you think that the decerebrate reaction is separate from the neuromuscular reaction. First, let's read Sturdivan again:

Quote
The first sequence will be a normal 24-frame-per-second view of this. This is a real time. First, we will observe the neuromuscular reaction, the goat will collapse then, and by the wiggling of his tail and the tenseness of the muscles we will see what I think has sometimes been called the decerebrate rigidity, and that takes place about a second after the shot and then slowly dissipates and you will see the goat slump, obviously dead.

The decerebrate reaction and terminus of the decerebrate reaction. (1 HSCA 416)

Now let's see what "decerebrate" means:

Quote
. . . the arms and legs being held straight out, the toes being pointed downward, and the head and neck being arched backward. The muscles are tightened and held rigidly. This type of posturing usually means there has been severe damage to the brain.

That is exactly the reaction that Sturdivan describes seeing in the 2400 fps film, and he calls it "the neuromuscular reaction that I described," which could only refer to the description of the real-time film:

Quote
. . . then the neuromuscular reaction that I described begins to happen; the back legs go out, under the influence of the powerful muscles of the back legs, the front legs go upward and outward, that back arches, as the powerful back muscles overcome those of the abdomen. (1 H 417)

Sturdivan knew what "decerebrate reaction" means, and he used it synonymously with "neuromuscular reaction." His syntax could have been a little clearer, but if you know what "decerebrate" means, you can see he was not saying that the decerebrate reaction was different from the neuromuscular reaction--he knew enough not to make such a fundamental error.

Now that we have that point cleared up, you need to deal with his observation that in "real time" the neuromuscular reaction began about 1000 milliseconds after bullet impact.







« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 10:57:11 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Online Joe Elliott

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Just to make sure that I'm understanding you right, by Z-314.5 you mean what we know as Z315?

No. I am not measuring time to the nearest frame, but to the nearest tenth of a frame. Each tenth of a frame is roughly 5 milliseconds long.

z-312.0 is when the shutter opens for frame 312. Roughly 27 milliseconds later the shutter closes at z-312.5. Frame z-312 shows images from time z-312.0 through z-312.5.

I believe the bullet struck at z-312.5, or there abouts, right when the shutter closed or very shortly after. Below is a possible, approximate, time scale. Basically, my best very rough estimate:

Vis    Time    Time
able    in      in
        sec.    Zap         Event
----  -----    -------     ---------------
       0.000   z-312.5   Shutter closes.
       0.000   z-312.5   Bullet impact.
       0.001   z-312.5   Bullet leaves head,
                                momentum has been deposited into head,
                                the head starts moving at a steady speed forward.
       0.027   z-313.0   Shutter opens.
vis   0.027   z-313.0       Head is now 1 inch in front of z-312 position, same steady speed
vis   0.055   z-313.5       Head is now 2 inches in front of z-312 position, same steady speed
       0.055   z-313.5   Shutter closes.
       0.077   z-314.0   Shutter opens.
vis   0.082   z-314.1   Neuromuscular spasm commences,
vis                                 Head starts moving back, initially slowly.
vis   0.110   z-314.5   Head is now 1.5 inches ahead of 312.5 position.
       0.110   z-314.5   Shutter closes.

“vis” refers to events that may be visible, because the shutter was open.

Again, this is not to represent exact locations. I don’t have the timing down to the nearest 5 milliseconds. Just a possible scenario consistent with what the Zapruder film shows and William Hoffman’s data.

In this scenario, the neuromuscular spasm started 82 milliseconds after the bullet impact. The real time  of reaction could be a little more, or less.

Online Joe Elliott

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Oh boy oh boy. Apparently you do not know what "decerebrate" means and what a "decerebrate reaction" is. Apparently you don't understand that when Sturdivan talked about the beginning and end (terminus) of the "decerebrate reaction," he was referring to the neuromuscular reaction. Instead, you're assuming that when Sturdivan said "and that takes places about a second after the shot," he was only talking about half of the actions he had just described, because you think that the decerebrate reaction is separate from the neuromuscular reaction. First, let's read Sturdivan again:

What does Mr. Sturdivan mean when he says:

Quote
Four one-hundredths of a second after that impact then the neuromuscular reaction that I described begins to happen; the back legs go out, under the influence of the powerful muscles of the back legs, the front legs go upward and outward, that back arches, as the powerful back muscles overcome those of the abdomen.

Don’t change the subject. Don’t quote a different portion of the testimony.

Just give me your interpretation of this sentence.


My interpretation is that 40 milliseconds after the impact of the bullet, the goat’s body starts to move.


The section you quote is ambiguous. Does it mean the “decerebrate reaction” starts after one second? Does he mean the wiggling of the tail stops after one second? It is ambiguous. You ignore the clear, unmistakable sentence, and focus and a statement that is ambiguous, and insist on interpreting it your way. If your interpretation is correct, then the later clear sentence, which I focus on, does not make sense. That is why I draw your attention to, and everybody else’s attention, to the clear, unmistakable sentence.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 11:11:02 PM by Joe Elliott »

Online Michael T. Griffith

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In this scenario, the neuromuscular spasm started 82 milliseconds after the bullet impact. The real time  of reaction could be a little more, or less.

Amazing. For the past week or so you have repeatedly said that JFK's head began to move backward 55 milliseconds after bullet impact. I trust I don't need to quote you to yourself. But, well, now that you realize you need that movement to start later--much later--to allow for the mere possibility that it was caused by a neurospasm, you suddenly decide that it might have begun 82 seconds after impact, an increase of 48%.




 

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