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Author Topic: JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories  (Read 1872 times)

Offline John Mytton

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More proof of a shot from behind is the pieces of brain/skull from Kennedy's head that is violently blasted out the front and can be seen in later Limo photos.





JohnM

« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 12:57:06 AM by John Mytton »

Offline Dan O'meara

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An example of the speed of a neuromuscular reflex (not reaction) is highlighted in the below animation. Focus on Kennedy's right hand, he is shot through in Z224 and by Z225 his hand is beginning to clench shut. By Z226 his hand has snapped shut into a fist.

Online Michael T. Griffith

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The most important evidence we have is video of an animal showing the neuromuscular spasm. We only have the one video, because it’s the only video I know that shows an animal being shot by a rifle bullet through the head.

If you’re going to get me to listen to an expert, that expert had better know the best pieces of evidence that both sides have. He better know all about the best piece of evidence that our side has. He doesn’t have to accept it, but he damm well better know about it. Otherwise, I’m not listening.

I don’t want you to decide what evidence is relevant or not. I want the “expert” to decide. And to hear the “expert’s” reasons on why they feel this evidence is relevant or not.

And as far as that not being relevant, the U. S. Army took film of, as memory serves me, 10,000 goats (who were drugged unconscious) being shot in various parts of the body. This was not done because some general in the Pentagon believed that the wars of the future were going to be fought by goats. These tests were commissioned to get insight into what happens at the moment a human soldier was wounded. It might give insight on how to better treat the wounded. Or develop better bullets. Somebody thought these tests were relevant.

The army figured accurately that animals can be used for this purpose. Afterall, the military had lots of experience, not in World War II but in previous wars, were animals, mostly horses, were exposed to enemy fire and observed that the effects of bullets on animals did not seem to be vastly different than the effects on humans.

Perhaps humans and animals would react greatly differently to rifle bullets to the head but, up until 1963, no one thought so.

Questions:
Can you quote an expert who before 1963 said that humans and animals would react differently to a rifle bullet through the brain or was this an argument first developed after 1963 to bolster certain arguments on the Kennedy assassination?

Was this something that was well known before then or was it something that was first “discovered” afterwards.


Yeah. I have the same problem. A lot of us LNers have that. Trusting what my eyes tell me and not what you or Art Snyder or Thompson tell me. I’ll have to get my eyes checked out by an optometrist.

The head seemed quite still from z304 up through z312, according to Hoffman’s careful measurements. I don’t see why these “distortions” would kick in right at z313, and cause JFK’s head to appear to move forward, while causing Jackie’s head to appear to stay still, as did JFK’s up until z313.

Does Snyder explain that?

No, you wouldn’t. You hope that there is no 2.3-inch forward movement, indicating a shot from the rear. You would wish the film would show itself to be a fake in some other way, any other way than that. That is why you argue there is no 2.3-inch forward movement.

Not unless he explains why this “distorted-apparent” movement is not there during z304-z312, but only kicks in at z313.

Not unless he explains why this “distorted-apparent” movement only effect JFK’s head but not Jackie’s?

You want me to except that Dr. Thompson’s arguments that the forward movement is not real. But to not accept his arguments that the film is real.

If Thompson can’t tell that the Zapruder film is an obvious fake, why are you interested on his opinion on if the head appears to move forward at z313? I would have thought that, for that reason alone, you wouldn’t be interested in what else Thompson thought of the film.

But I have some questions for you that don’t require any research. You can answer them within 5 minutes just using reasoning.

Questions:

Why should Dr. Chambers, Dr. Mantik and you claim that the fast-neuromuscular spasm in a human has been established as being impossible, or highly unlikely, when this can only be established as impossible or unlikely by running tests on human subjects?

Wouldn’t one have to run these experiments first, before making these claims?

If these tests cannot be run, shouldn’t we withhold judgment?

Or is it more scientific to just guess?


You have once again responded with a long reply that does not lay a finger on any of the facts that refute the neuromuscular-reaction theory. You did not address a single fact that Martin Hay raised, and you are claiming, without any credible evidence, that Dr. Chambers is simply wrong about human neuromuscular reaction times.

Just exactly who are your neuroscientists/physicists who say the neuromuscular-reaction theory is plausible? I can name numerous such scholars who say the theory is implausible/bizarre/nonsensical, including Dr. Zacharko, Dr. Mantik, Dr. Riley, Dr. Chambers, and Dr. Snyder.

Even Dr. Luis Alvarez, who falsified his ballistics tests data and did all he could to avoid the obvious conclusion that the backward head movement was caused by a frontal shot--even he did not buy the idea that a bullet to JFK's head could have caused a neuromuscular reaction. Instead, Alvarez relied on the jet-effect theory to explain the backward head movement--and, as we've seen, Alvarez's jet-effect theory has been demolished.






Online Joe Elliott

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You have once again responded with a long reply that does not lay a finger on any of the facts that refute the neuromuscular-reaction theory. You did not address a single fact that Martin Hay raised, and you are claiming, without any credible evidence, that Dr. Chambers is simply wrong about human neuromuscular reaction times.

Just exactly who are your neuroscientists/physicists who say the neuromuscular-reaction theory is plausible? I can name numerous such scholars who say the theory is implausible/bizarre/nonsensical, including Dr. Zacharko, Dr. Mantik, Dr. Riley, Dr. Chambers, and Dr. Snyder.

No. I didn’t say Dr. Chambers is simply wrong about normal human reaction times. I’m saying he is wrong about a neuromuscular spasm reaction time, which we can observe in the goat.


Which of your fine experts:

•   Explains why a neuromuscular spasm would happen in a goat but not in a human. And explains why that is.

Or:

•   Explains why a neuromuscular spasm in a goat would commence after about 40 milliseconds, but in a human, it would take much longer.

Since I am used to you providing no answers, I will provide your answer for you:

None.


Which physicists would say the neuromuscular spasm hypothesis is true?

Asking a physicist is illogical because they don’t deal with biology.

Which neuroscientists say the neuromuscular spasm for a human hypothesis is true?

None that I know of. Because no proper scientist will give an opinion on something that has not been tested yet. They would have to observe a film of a person being shot through the brain to give an opinion. If they are a proper medical doctor. Medical doctors don’t like to give opinions unless their opinion can be backed by evident. Since an experiment of shooting a person through the brain with a rifle bullet is not allowed, its impossible to get an opinion either way, from a proper medical doctor.

100 trillion neutrinos pass through a human body every second. What would happen to a human a billion, trillion neutrinos were to pass through a human brain each second over the course of an entire year. A proper medical doctor should not give an opinion.

How many neuroscientists do you have? One. Dr. Zacharko. A proper scientist would first ask “What evidence, like films of humans do we have?”. The answer, none, and impossible to get this evidence. So, the second question such a scientist should ask “What evidence, like films of animals, do we have?”. And would look at it an evaluate it. He may decide the support is good enough to tentatively say that this hypothesis is plausible. Or might equally likely prefer to withhold any opinion, since no proper test with a human can be run.

You have one neuroscientist, who does not know anything about the basic evidence of this case. Who never checked to see what films of animals being shot were available. For all he knew, you could have been keeping a film of a human being shot through the brain.

So, on the basis of one neuroscientist, who never bothered to learn the most basic facts of this case, I should conclude the neuromuscular spasm is implausible.

I need more than that. I need the neuroscientist to tell me he is aware of what happens when an animal, like a goat is shot through the brain. He needs to tell me why a neuromuscular spasm would happen in a goat but not in a human. Or he needs to tell that a neuromuscular spasm would happen in both a goat and a human, but it would start super-fast in a goat, in 40 milliseconds, but would take much longer in a human. And why he believes this to be true.

No expert of yours has addressed any of my major questions. I won’t accept their opinions until one of them does. And it better not be the opinion of a non-doctor of medicine.


I have answered your questions.


Once again, I will present to you a few questions that you dare not answer, since any answer will not look foolish or destroy your arguments. None of these questions require any research:

Why should Dr. Chambers, Dr. Mantik and you claim that the fast-neuromuscular spasm in a human has been established as being impossible, or highly unlikely, when this can only be established as impossible or unlikely by running tests on human subjects?

Wouldn’t one have to run these experiments first, before making these claims?

If these tests cannot be run, shouldn’t we withhold judgment?

Or is it more scientific to just guess?


Offline Dan O'meara

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Hi Joe,

I'm trying to find the scientific data on the goat reflex time but can't, can you tell me where to find it. Thanks

Offline Otto Beck

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Ironically, Parkland had qualified personnel to do a proper autopsy yet somebody assigned James "Hack" Humes to chop him up -- LOL

This neurospasm goat rabbit hole goes nowhere, but I did enjoy keyboard jockey Elliott's Joe Biden moment:

100 trillion neutrinos pass through a human body every second. What would happen to a human a billion, trillion neutrinos were to pass through a human brain each second over the course of an entire year. -- ROFL

Online Michael T. Griffith

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Ah-ha! I knew it! I just knew it! I knew there was something wrong with Joe Elliott’s description of the 1948 U.S. Army ballistics test film of a goat being shot in the head. When I pointed out that the backward movement of JFK’s head in the Zapruder film begins too quickly (1/18th/second or 55 milliseconds) to have been caused by a neuromuscular reaction, Elliott claimed that the goat film proved otherwise:

Quote
. . . there is a video of a goat which was shot through the head which causes its body to move pretty forcibly. . . . The goat starts moving its body 40 milliseconds after the bullet struck. So, the very next frame, roughly 55 milliseconds later, JFK’s head starts moving as well.

Leaving aside the important fact that the goat’s reaction movements are very different from JFK’s reaction movements, on a hunch, I reviewed ballistics expert Larry Sturdivan’s HSCA testimony on the 1948 goat ballistics test, which I had not read for at least 20 years. I discovered that the film that Elliott has been citing was not shot in real time, and that the film that was shot in real time shows that the goat did not begin to react until about 1,000 milliseconds after the bullet’s impact.

The film that Elliott has been citing was taken at 2,400 frames per second (fps). At that film speed, yes, the goat begins to react right around 40 milliseconds after the bullet hits the goat’s head. But, as Sturdivan explained to the HSCA, when you view the real-time film of the same goat test, the one taken at 24 fps, the goat’s reaction “takes place about a second after the shot and then slowly dissipates and you will see the goat slump” (1 HSCA 416).

“About a second” equals about 1,000 milliseconds. There are 1,000 milliseconds in 1 second. So if the goat began to react “about a second after the shot,” then it began to react about 1,000 milliseconds after the shot. We can reasonably infer that when Sturdivan said "about a second," he meant 800-1100 milliseconds, or perhaps 800-1000 milliseconds, or perhaps 900-1000 milliseconds.

Sturdivan was nice enough to explain that the 24 fps film was a “normal” view and “real time”:

Quote
The first sequence will be a normal 24-frame-per-second view of this. This is a real time. (1 HSCA 416)

Sturdivan then explained that the second sequence, which is the one that Elliott has been citing, was taken at 2,400 fps, and that in that 2,400-fps film, yes, the goat’s reaction begins about 40 milliseconds, or “four one-hundredths,” after bullet impact:

Quote
Now, this sequence will show the same goat, exactly the same shot, but in this case the movies are taken at 2,400. frames per second. . . .

Four one-hundredths of a second after that impact then the neuromuscular reaction that I described begins to happen. (1 HSCA 416-417)

“Mystery” solved! I say “mystery” because I was frankly a bit baffled by the seemingly impossible speed of the goat’s reaction in the film that Elliott cited. I attributed it to the many differences between goat and human neurobiology and neurophysics (not to mention that the goat’s reaction movements differ markedly from JFK’s). But I also read that goat/sheep/dog/horse and human neuromuscular reaction times are similar—not identical, but similar. Every source I checked said that the fastest human neuromuscular reactions ranged in speed from 100 milliseconds in a few cases to around 200-600 milliseconds in most cases.

When the HSCA asked forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht about the neuromuscular-reaction theory, he rejected it because he said that the fastest time for such a reaction was about 100 milliseconds, but JFK's head starts to move just 55 milliseconds after bullet impact. Dr. Wecht's statement about human neuromuscular reaction times was correct. A study published in Scientific American found that the absolute fastest neuromuscular reaction time was 100 milliseconds, with the slower ones being 400-600 milliseconds (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bring-science-home-reaction-time/). And remember that we're talking about a reaction that involved moving Kennedy's head and upper body, not the flick of two fingers or an eyelid, and not a startle reflex from auditory simulation.

Anyway, to recap: The goat film that Elliott has been citing was not filmed in real time but in 2,400 fps. The real-time film of the same goat and the same test shows that the goat’s reaction did not begin until about 1,000 milliseconds after the bullet hit the skull. Therefore, the goat film argues powerfully against the theory that JFK’s backward movement could have been caused by a neuromuscular reaction. Also, in the Zapruder film, JFK's backward movement begins just 55 milliseconds after bullet impact, far too soon to have been caused by a neuromuscular reaction--the absolute fastest human neuromuscular reaction time is 100 milliseconds, and the normal range for such reactions is from 200 to 600 milliseconds.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 05:05:50 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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When I pointed out that the backward movement of JFK’s head in the Zapruder film begins too quickly (1/18th/second or 55 milliseconds) to have been caused by a neuromuscular reaction, Elliott claimed that the goat film proved otherwise:

You are getting that (1/18th/second or 55 milliseconds) from Chambers. He is wrong. He has Kennedy being hit at Z313 and then noticeable moving backward in the next frame. Kennedy was hit between Z312 and Z313 and the ITEK report has Z315 as being the frame where Kennedy's backward movement is clearly in progress. So, the response time was 110 milliseconds or more.

Online Michael T. Griffith

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You are getting that (1/18th/second or 55 milliseconds) from Chambers. He is wrong. He has Kennedy being hit at Z313 and then noticeable moving backward in the next frame. Kennedy was hit between Z312 and Z313 and the ITEK report has Z315 as being the frame where Kennedy's backward movement is clearly in progress. So, the response time was 110 milliseconds or more.

Huh?! So now JFK's head doesn't start to move backward until 315?! You'd better go back and read what Elliott himself has acknowledged on this point, not only in this thread but in the his own thread on Dr. Zacharko.

We're not talking about when the head movement is "clearly in progress" but when it begins, and it begins at Z313. Even Nicholas Nalli, in the latest attempt to salvage the jet-effect theory, says, "In Z313 the catastrophic effect of the energy deposit from a supersonic projectile passing through a human head is clearly evident. . . . showing both the initial 'forward snap' of the President's head from Z312 to Z313, along with the 'rearward lurch' from frames Z313 to Z322." Nobody but you denies this.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 07:51:01 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Huh?! So now JFK's head doesn't start to move backward until 315?! You'd better go back and read what Elliott himself has acknowledged on this point, not only in this thread but in the his own thread on Dr. Zacharko.

We're not talking about when the head movement is "clearly in progress" but when it begins, and it begins at Z313. Even Nicholas Nalli, in the latest attempt to salvage the jet-effect theory, says, "In Z313 the catastrophic effect of the energy deposit from a supersonic projectile passing through a human head is clearly evident. . . . showing both the initial 'forward snap' of the President's head from Z312 to Z313, along with the 'rearward lurch' from frames Z313 to Z322." Nobody but you denies this.

It's not just me that denies it. The ITEK panel of photo and film analysis experts denied it as well.

 

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