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Author Topic: Dr. Mantik and the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis  (Read 349 times)

Online Joe Elliott

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Dr. Mantik and the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis
« on: June 28, 2020, 06:03:00 AM »

In Dr. David Mantik’s book:
Assassination Science: Experts Speak Out on the Death of JFK
; The “Experts” this book refers to are world renown experts like Dr. James Fetzer and Dr. David Mantik who have discovered that the Holocaust and the Zapruder film are both hoaxes.
; Yes, Yes, I know. I can’t give Dr. Mantik all the credit for these great discoveries. Some of them were Fetzer’s.

Chapter: How the Film of the Century was Edited
          Note: Well of course the “The Wizard of Oz” was a hoax. Did he think that was all real?

Page 281

He wrote:

Quote
The other traditional explanation for the head snap has been the "neuromuscular reaction." This was first proposed to the HSCA not by any neuroscience specialist, but by a wound ballistics expert based on his viewing old films of goats being shot in the head. To date no official testimony has been obtained from appropriate specialists (the neuroscientists) on this question. At the very least, interspecies differences in neurophysiology would leave this conclusion open at least to some doubt. In addition, the usual reaction to such brain trauma is not the highly directed movement observed in the Zapruder film but rather random muscular activity. Even Alvarez concluded that the highly directional recoil seen in the Zapruder film required the application of an external force.

Yet another objection to the decerebrate rigidity invoked by the HSCA is the time of onset; even the HSCA admitted that this would develop only after several minutes. I have been unable to find any literature references that even hint that this reaction could occur within milliseconds in human subjects-as is required for the head snap as seen in the film. Furthermore, in a large collaborative study (A.E. Walker, Cerebral Death, 1981, p. 33) with over 500 patients who experienced cerebral death, 70% were limp when observed just before death and an additional 10% became limp at about the time of death. At the very least, therefore, based on all of these considerations, the attempt by the HSCA to implicate a neuromuscular reaction is open to serious doubt. Moreover, the minimum requirement has never been met-the appropriate experts have never been officially consulted.

An additional argument against a neuromuscular reaction is that the observed reaction in the film is much too fast to fit with such a reflex. By the analysis of more than one study, within the space of one Zapruder frame interval (55 msec), the head clearly moves backward. Typical human reflex times are 1/4 to 1/2 second (250 to 500 msec). This is an extraordinary discrepancy-a factor of 5 to 10, which, all by itself, makes this scenario quite unlikely. (Assassination Science, pp. 281-282, PDF copy available online at https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Assassination_Science.pdf)


If I can break it down for the laymen, Dr. Mantik explains that the Neuromuscular Spasm may happen to a goat that is shot in the brain with a rifle bullet. How could he deny it with the evidence of the film of the goat being shot through the brain with a rifle bullet, shot in 1948 by the U. S. Army in order to get insights into what happens when soldiers are wounded in battle.

But Dr. Mantik assures us that such a thing would never happen in humans. Afterall, humans and goats have totally different bodies.

But, even if Dr. Mantik was wrong on this point, and a neuromuscular spasm did happen in a human, Dr. Mantik assures us that trauma is not the highly directed movement observed in the Zapruder film, and the film of the goat, but would be a rather random muscular activity.

But, even if Dr. Mantik was wrong on both of the previous points, and a neuromuscular spasm occurred that effected the left and right side of the bodies the same, Dr. Mantik assures us that in a human, this neuromuscular spasm would take several minutes to take effect, whereas both the film of the goat and the President show body movement commencing within 40 milliseconds to 55 milliseconds respectively.

But, even if Dr. Mantik was wrong on all three of the previous points, and a neuromuscular spasm did occurred in a human much faster than taking several minutes, Dr. Mantik further assures us that in a human, the neuromuscular spasm could not occur within 55 milliseconds because, after all, the typical reflex times in both human and goats are 250 to 500 milliseconds.

So, his great knowledge of human anatomy tells him that the neuromuscular spasm could not happen in a human at all, although if it did it would cause random muscle movement, but if it didn’t it would still take several minutes to occur after the bullet was fired, or at least 250 to 500 milliseconds.

Dr. Mantik also points out, that this 1948 U. S. Army film were not presented to the HSCA by doctors or even professional film projectionists, but by ballistic experts, which allows us to disregard anything the film shows us.

In addition, there is no testimony from any neuroscientist who can confirm that such a neuromuscular spasm can occur in humans. This may be because no neuroscientist has been allowed to shoot a human through the head with a rifle bullet which would allow him to confirm or refute this hypothesis. No film can be made of such an event. In the rare cases where we do have film of a man, Bill Stewart, an ABC reporter killed in Nicaragua with a bullet in the head, this film is considered too disturbing to his family to be shown, although it is alleged that this film does show a clear neuromuscular spasm. But this film is not available for neuroscientists to review. The only film of a person that, for some strange reason, is allowed to be viewed, and not just by experts but by everyone, is that of President Kennedy. Despite the pain this causes the family. We have the CTers to thank for that. But by now, I guess the family is used to it.


I can see why Dr. Mantik and Dr. Fetzer got along so well with each other over all those years. They both think alike.

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Dr. Mantik and the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2020, 11:23:12 AM »
The first shot that hits JFK in the back cause a neuro-muscular reflex. JFK is hit high up in the back next to the spinal column severing one of the cervical plexus nerves, probably the T1 (see this diagram https://44wj5q2j6wo23s4mp6owjohh-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Brachial_Plexus.jpg ). This causes an instantaneous Withdrawal (Nociceptive Flexion) Reflex, a response to a stimulus applied directly to the Central Nervous System. The result is that his hands snap shut, something demonstrated by a close examination of Z224 - Z226.
A close examination of JFK's right hand in this animation - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jh4v8KKtzP-SXQXam_OOoOvXBSiX9u8g2qTsnmexybA/edit - clearly shows it happening. Rather than clutch at his throat he jams his clenched fists under his chin and the begins to raise his elbows. You can try this yourself, jam your fists under your chin and see how high you can raise your elbows, with your greatest effort you will barely get your elbows to go as high as JFK's. For a second JFK is absolutely rigid.
In contrast, when he is hit with the head-shot his body goes completely limp, his neck flexes backwards to its fullest extent and his arms, which are still stiffly held up to his throat simply fall away in a relaxed fashion. There is absolutely none of the rigidity displayed in the first shot. There is no neuro-muscular reflex.
The profoundly massive damage to JFK's skull represents immense forces that must be reflected in the way he moves. The effect of the first head-shot entering the back of his skull is seen by a close examination of Z312 - Z313, his head moves forward a few inches in a fraction of a second. The effect of the second head-shot is far more clear to the naked eye, not only his head being snapped backwards but enough force to move his whole body backwards. There is no neuro-muscular reflex, the forces represented in his body movements are being applied externally.
As for the Nalli/Alvarez "Balloon Brain" hypothesis, I think its the most disgraceful and embarrassing pieces of academia I've ever encountered. Kennedy is clearly hit from the front by at least one projectile, this is beyond obvious, the only reason its still being debated is due to a shameful denial of this obvious truth.

Online Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Dr. Mantik and the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2020, 01:31:51 PM »
Your claim that Dr. Mantik has denied the Holocaust is a scurrilous lie.

And Dr. Mantik is not the only scientist who has pointed out that the reversal of movement of JFK's head in the Zapruder film is too fast to have been caused by a neuromuscular reaction.

Before anyone uses Nicholar Nalli's defense of the neuromuscular-reaction theory, they might want to read Dr. Mantik's critique of Nalli's research:

The Omissions and Miscalculations of Nicholas Nalli
https://themantikview.com/pdf/Omissions_and_Miscalculations_of_Nicholas_Nalli.pdf

For the sake of others, I paste one of my replies to you on this neuromuscular-reaction theory:

It is unethical to run this experiment with humans, so we must limit ourselves to experiments on animals, like goats.

The movement of the goat is not random at all. Both the left and right half of the body move the same way. Both forelimbs kick forward. Both hindlimbs kick backwards. And the back arches. Just like what we see happen to JFK. Both the goat video and the Zapruder film, are consistent with a spurious signal down the spinal cord telling all muscles to contract, causing the stronger muscle of each pair to move a body part.

This is quack material, downright nutty. But it's all you have because you will not allow yourself to consider the evidence of a shot from the front.

You keep ignoring the point that neuromuscular reactions in humans are not fast enough to cause the movement we see in the Zapruder film. Several scholars have made this point, including Thompson and Mantik, but you keep ignoring it.

You also keep ignoring Dr. Riley's point, reinforced by Dr. Mantik, that goat and human neurobiology and neurophysics are very different.

And are you ever going to deal with Dr. Zacharko's point that the neuromuscular-reaction theory is "simply nonsense"? Let's read his bottom line on this nutty theory:

"Neural damage per se associated with bullet entry will not cause exaggerated head movement of the type you see in the Zapruder film. In fact there are no brain sites that will. This neuromuscular reactivity argument is simply nonsense. . . .

"Actually there is a system which is referred to as the extrapyramidal motor system, which runs from the mesencephalon to the forebrain. It controls voluntary movement. If this system was to discharge, you would effect gross motor output. Such discharge would typically represent the invasion of seizure like activity to motor areas. It would not be coordinated and certainly not of the type evident in the Zapruder film. The bottom line is that the head movements are reactions to the direction of bullet entry. They are not the product of central nervous system damage."

Dr. Alvarez was not a medical doctor but a great Physicist, so it is natural that he would look for the answer to be found in Physics.

Yeah, who needs science when it comes to avoiding conclusions you don't like, right?

So, essentially, we must conclude that the Jet Effect Hypothesis is false because some LNers support the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypotheses. And the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypotheses is false because some LNers support the Jet Effect Hypotheses. We can’t even consider the possibility that some LNers are wrong, while some are right, and that one of these hypotheses is true.

Which is a very long-winded way of dancing around the point that even some of your fellow WC apologists can see that the neuromuscular-reaction theory is "simply nonsense."

But the goat starts to move within 40 ms of being shot through the brain. But, again, you feel that the opinion of armchair experts, who do not study the film of real animals being shot through the brain, should overrule what film actually shows us. And conclude that an animal being shot though the brain cannot react within 55 ms but instead would take several minutes to observe any body movement in either the goat or JFK.

In other words, never mind what we know from science about the speed of human neuromuscular reactions, and never mind the impossibility of the physics involved with the violent reversal of movement. Nah, forget about all that stuff and instead cling for dear life onto some irrelevant video of a goat being shot in the head with its head secured, and never mind that goats and humans have very different neurobiology and neurophysics.

But this claim is false because the goat in the video beings to move 40 milliseconds after being shot in the head.

Was JFK a goat? Is that your theory but you're just not saying it? Goat, goat, goat, goat. Here, read this carefully: Goats and humans have different neurobiology and neurophysics. JFK was not a goat. Who cares about the reactions of a goat when we know that human neuromuscular reactions are not fast enough to produce the movement we see in the Zapruder film?

While typical animal reflexes do take longer than 40 ms, the neuromuscular spasm is much faster. But rather than accept what the film shows us, you decide that the armchair analysis of a doctor overrules what the film shows.

No, the problem is that rather than accept what science tells us about the speed of human neuromuscular reactions, and rather than accept the fact that humans are not goats, and rather than accept the fact that human and goat neurobiology and neurophysics are different (which most high schoolers would guess just based on common sense), and rather than deal honestly with the impossibility of the physics of the split-second reversal of the movement of JFK's head--rather than accept these facts, you keep citing this ridiculous goat film.

And, we are not talking about one "armchair analysis of a doctor" but of the analyses of several doctors (one of whom is also a physicist), two neuroscientists (Riley and Zacharko), several forensic pathologists (including a former head of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences), and at least three physicists (Alvarez, Snyder, and Chambers).

Well, you dodged all five of my questions. So I will ask them again.

Okay, let's deal with your silly questions.

Question 1:
Can you name a single article, a single book, that argues for the Neuromuscular Spasm as being the cause of JFK’s backward movement, that does not even mention the film of the goat?

The goat film again?!  Given that those who argue for the neuromuscular-reaction theory must ignore a mountain of science to even float the theory, I have no doubt that they throw in the irrelevant goat film to support their claim--apparently, they, like you, just don't care about the differences between goat and human neurobiology and neurophysics, nor about what science tells us about the speed of human neuromuscular reactions.

If not, then this is not an irrelevant fact, but core of the claim of the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis and should have been mentioned to Dr. Zacharko before asking for this opinion, since this might have altered his conclusions.

Let me ask you a serious question in return: Do you think Dr. Zacharko would change his mind, that he would decide that the neuromuscular-reaction theory is not "simply nonsense," if he watched the goat film? Do you?

And you know that Dr. Zacharko was not just basing his answer on my description of the Zapruder film but that he had watched the film himself, right? You know that, right?

If the "core" of the neuromuscular-spasm theory is the irrelevant goat film, that should tell you what a ridiculous, unscientific theory it is. As Dr. Zacharko said, it is "simply nonsense" because science tells us that humans do not move the way JFK does in response to neuromuscular activity. Let's read Dr. Zacharko's point about this again:

"If this system was to discharge, you would effect gross motor output. Such discharge would typically represent the invasion of seizure like activity to motor areas. It would not be coordinated and certainly not of the type evident in the Zapruder film.

"The bottom line is that the head movements are reactions to the direction of bullet entry. They are not the product of central nervous system damage."

Question 2: Should an authority be informed of the main argument, the main piece of evidence, of both sides before being asked for his opinion? Yes or No. Or is it sometimes best to keep him in ignorance.

LOL! So the goat film is the "main piece of evidence" for your nutty neuromuscular-spasm theory?! Actually, I probably did your nutty theory a favor by not mentioning the goat film to Dr. Zacharko. Truth be told, it never occurred to me to mention that irrelevant film. Instead, I carefully described JFK's movements from Z312 onward and quoted two prominent authors on the science and physics of those movements.

Again, do you think Dr. Zacharko would change his mind based on the goat film? Do you think he would conclude that the human extrapyramidal motor system behaves differently than the way he described it, if he saw the goat film? After all, as you can see from his full response, he described in considerable detail the workings of the human extrapyramidal motor system, and also the pons, the medulla, and the cerebellum, and then explained that the extrapyramidal motor system would not cause the movement of JFK's head seen in the Zapruder film.

Question 3: Should the decision to dismiss the main piece of evidence presented by LNers, be made by Dr. Zacharko or Michael Griffith?

I guess it’s time for another review for you: Goats are not humans. Goats and humans have very different neurobiology and neurophysics. The goat film is irrelevant. JFK's movements are a matter of humanneurobiology and neurophysics, and Dr. Zacharko addressed them on that basis.

Again, do you think the goat film would cause Dr. Zacharko to change his conclusion that the relevant part of human neuroanatomy--the extrapyramidal motor system--would magically behave differently than he described it?

Question 4: In the future, will you tell people that JFK’s head was thrown back violently, or tell them it moved backwards at 2 mph?

Oh. My. Goodness. You are so lost in lone-gunman delusion that you can't see the forest for the huge trees. Anyone not blinded by lone-gunman denial can see with their own eyes that JFK's head and upper body are thrown violently backward and to the left from Z313-323. You are the first WC apologist I have ever personally encountered who describes that movement as “gradual” and who denies that it is violent.

And, again, what makes this movement even more incredible is that it begins a split second after the head moves 2.3 inches forward in 1/18th/second.


Question 5: And the most important question of all. Do you believe a bullet only transfers momentum to a target while it is passing through the target? Or do you believe a bullet can continue to transfer momentum to a target even after it’s left the body. Accounting for the gradual increase of speed of JFK’s backwards from 0 mph to 2 mph over the course of a quarter of a second.

Sigh. . . . Well, first of all, a 190% increase in speed in five frames, going from 0 to 1.9 mph in 5/18th/second, by an object that has just moved 2.3 inches forward in 1/18th/second is not "gradual" by any rational analysis. This is the kind of nonsense that you must posit when you are locked into an absurd theory of the shooting and the head movement. Again, anyone can look at the Zapruder film and see with their own eyes that Kennedy's head and upper body are propelled violently backward and to the left.

As for how human bodies respond to bullet strikes, it depends on the type of bullet, the type of rifle, and the action, or lack thereof, by the person just before they are struck. There is war footage that shows prisoners being executed by nearly point-blank gunfire where the prisoners exhibit no violent movements but simply fall down. There is other war footage that shows prisoners' heads moving in the same direction as the bullet that strikes them: forward when shot from behind, and backward when shot from the front. Connally's right shoulder was pushed noticeably downward by the bullet that struck him in the back, and he said it felt like someone hit him hard in the back with their fist. Martin Luther King was knocked backward by the bullet that struck him in the front.

The problem with the Zapruder film, i.e., an indication that it has been altered, is that no bullet would cause JFK's head and upper body to reverse direction so rapidly. The original film showed two noticeable reactions: JFK's head being knocked forward and then JFK's head being knocked backward [or pushed backward by Jackie] but not as fiercely as we see in the current film.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 02:48:03 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: Dr. Mantik and the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2020, 04:33:17 PM »

Your claim that Dr. Mantik has denied the Holocaust is a scurrilous lie.

I did not say that. But Dr. Mantik did collaborate and wrote books with Dr. James Fetzer, who is a Holocaust denier. Which says something about the judgment of Dr. Mantik.


And Dr. Mantik is not the only scientist who has pointed out that the reversal of movement of JFK's head in the Zapruder film is too fast to have been caused by a neuromuscular reaction.

And do any of these scientist explain why it is impossible for a human to start moving within 55 milliseconds but it is possible for a goat to start moving within 40 milliseconds of being shot, as observed in the 1948 U. S. Army film? Humans don’t typically react within 55 milliseconds but do goats typically react within 40 milliseconds? Couldn’t the same arguments be used to argue it’s impossible for a goat to react within 40 milliseconds, even though this is contradicted by the goat film?



Blah blah blah
In other words, never mind what we know from science about the speed of human neuromuscular reactions, and never mind the impossibility of the physics involved with the violent reversal of movement. Nah, forget about all that stuff and instead cling for dear life onto some irrelevant video of a goat being shot in the head with its head secured, and never mind that goats and humans have very different neurobiology and neurophysics.
Blah blah blah
Was JFK a goat? Is that your theory but you're just not saying it? Goat, goat, goat, goat. Here, read this carefully: Goats and humans have different neurobiology and neurophysics. JFK was not a goat. Who cares about the reactions of a goat when we know that human neuromuscular reactions are not fast enough to produce the movement we see in the Zapruder film?
Blah blah blah

And here your repeat over and over the same thing. Humans cannot react that fast. It is a scientific fact that they cannot react that fast.


Here is the reality.

Whether humans can start to react within 55 milliseconds is not known. We cannot find out if this is true because it is immoral and illegal to run this experiment. It is effectively impossible for science to prove it is true or false.


Anyone who says a neuromuscular reaction in a human, starting within 55 milliseconds, have been absolutely established as true fact, is a fool.

And anyone who says the opposite, that a neuromuscular reaction in a human, starting within 55 milliseconds, is absolutely impossible and this is a true fact, is a fool.


I don’t make either claim. You and the Dr. Mantik’s of the world are the ones who make one of these foolish claims. And that is why there are only a few scientists in the world who make this claim. Because most scientists are not fools.


What I am saying is that a fast-neuromuscular reaction, in a human, starting within roughly 55 milliseconds is a possibility. The fact that in a goat, a neuromuscular spasm does occur and starts within 40 milliseconds provides support, though not proof, of this possibility. We should not blindly accept it and not bother looking at the Zapruder film. And we should not blindly reject it without looking at the Zapruder film. Because it may provide the best explanation of what is seen in the film.

And it turns out the neuromuscular spasm hypothesis offers the best explanation of JFK’s movement. So, it is probably true.


Am I saying that the fast (55 ms) neuromuscular spasm hypothesis for humans is now an absolutely established fact? No. Perhaps there are other explanations. It is not impossible that Jackie pushed JFK back at 2 mph. Highly unlikely that she would do so, highly unlikely that she would do so just at the same time of the bullet strike, but not absolutely impossible. Nothing that would be beyond her strength, I don’t think.

It would take several tests with human subjects, filmed by quality high speed cameras, to establish or refute the human neuromuscular spasm hypothesis. And these experiments will never be done. But the neuromuscular spasm hypothesis currently provides the most likely explanation of JFK’s movement during z313-z318.

Questions:

Why should Dr. Mantik and you claim that the fast-neuromuscular spasm in a human has been established as being impossible, or highly unlikely, when this can only be established as impossible or unlikely by running tests on human subjects?

Wouldn’t one have to run these experiments first, before making these claims?



These are simple questions. Don’t dodge them.

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: Dr. Mantik and the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2020, 04:53:34 PM »

In contrast, when he is hit with the head-shot his body goes completely limp, his neck flexes backwards to its fullest extent and his arms, which are still stiffly held up to his throat simply fall away in a relaxed fashion. There is absolutely none of the rigidity displayed in the first shot. There is no neuro-muscular reflex.

You are very mistaken. JFK’s arms do not go limp. During z315-z318, his right elbow shoots up 6 inches. I estimate that initially, during z315-z316, the right elbow was moving upward faster than the head ever moved backwards, at 3 mph. But this motion was quickly slowed down by gravity so the arm reached its highest point at z318 and only then started to fall limply. Go take another look at the individual frames of the Zapruder film.

This provides further support for the neuromuscular spasm hypothesis. It explains the order of the movement:

First JFK’s head starts moving backwards at z313.
Then JFK’s torso starts moving backwards at z314.
Then JFK’s arms, or at least right arm, starts moving upwards at z315.

The muscles that are controlled by longer nerve paths from the top of the spinal cord take a little longer to activate.

All the movement is governed by the stronger muscles of the body. The muscles that move the head back are stronger than the muscles that move the head forward. The muscles that move the torso back are stronger than the muscles that move the torso forward. The muscles that move the arms upwards are stronger than the muscles that move them downward. Totally consistent with a spurious signal sent down the spinal cord to all muscles in the body.

And as more and more muscles are activated, the speed of JFK’s head gradually builds up from z313-z318.

I mean, come on, what else could cause JFK’s right elbow to shoot up like that. This could only be caused by his own muscles?

Online Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Dr. Mantik and the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2020, 05:16:08 PM »
Here is another critique of Nicholas Nalli's attempt to explain JFK's head movements in single-gunman terms:

SCIENTIST’S TRICK ‘EXPLAINS’ JFK BACKWARD MOVEMENT WHEN SHOT
https://whowhatwhy.org/2018/05/31/scientist-neutralizes-jfks-back-and-to-the-left-or-does-he/

The critique was written by Milicent Cranor, who has a background in medical forensic publishing and has several peer-reviewed articles published in medical journals.

One of the focuses of Cranor's critique is the jet-effect theory. Some WC apologists claim that JFK's head movements were caused by a "jet effect" or by a combination of a neuro spasm and a jet effect. Nalli relies heavily on Alvarez's work, apparently not realizing that Alvarez, incredibly, failed to include the forward motion of the head in his calculations:

Quote
But what about the first interaction? The one that occurs before the bullet even gets to the brain: the collision between bullet and the back of the head.

This first collision would knock the head in the direction of the bullet — and that forward movement and transfer of energy would compete with any alleged jet effect causing the head to move backward.

And it had to be quite a violent collision. According to the official narrative, a bullet slammed into the back of JFK’s head traveling at nearly 1900 feet per second, broke into two jacketed fragments, leaving behind multiple lead fragments, and a thin round fragment embedded in the skull.

At first, I thought Alvarez had just assumed readers didn’t need to be told about this first collision, but when I looked at his mathematical equations, I was shocked to see that he didn’t represent it there either.

So how did he avoid it in his actual experiments? For skulls, he used a much softer target — melons wrapped in tape, then fired at them at close range, with a much more destructive bullet than the one that allegedly hit Kennedy.

Despite the way Alvarez rigged his experiments, they didn’t even deliver proof of the jet-effect explanation. Dr. Gary Aguilar reported that photographs in Alvarez’s private files, obtained from Paul Hoch, Alvarez’s graduate student assistant, showed that

Virtually all the objects he fired at flew away from the shooter, not toward him, except for the ones he reported in the AJP. [American Journal of Physics]

If jet effect is a viable explanation for what you see on the Zapruder film — why is so much deception needed to sell it? . . .

Alvarez completely skipped over the first interaction, the collision between bullet and back of the head. It just doesn’t exist in his calculations. Nalli, on the other hand, did include it, but he greatly diminished its power — and tried to conceal the fact that he did.


Online Joe Elliott

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Re: Dr. Mantik and the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2020, 06:13:33 PM »

Here is another critique of Nicholas Nalli's attempt to explain JFK's head movements in single-gunman terms:
Blah blah blah . . .

Forget this. Just answer the following two questions. Quit dodging them. Or explain why you fell why you must dodge them. You give paragraph after paragraph of nonsense but won’t answer a couple of simple questions. I think the reason is obvious. You cannot justify the stance that your and Dr. Mantik have taken.

Questions:

Why should Dr. Mantik and you claim that the fast-neuromuscular spasm in a human has been established as being impossible, or highly unlikely, when this can only be established as impossible or unlikely by running tests on human subjects?

Wouldn’t one have to run these experiments first, before making these claims?


Online Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Dr. Mantik and the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2020, 09:27:28 PM »
I contacted Dr. Mantik, whom I have known for years, and informed him of your sleazy claim that he has denied the Holocaust. I already knew this was false because I have heard him condemn Hitler and the Nazis on several occasions. My e-mail to him and his reply, both sent today, are below:

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:17 PM David Mantik <davidmantik@verizon.net> wrote:

Mike,

Of course not.

Ask him to cite my comment.

Why would anyone promulgate such a lie?

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Griffith <michael.t.griffith@gmail.com>
To: David Mantik <davidmantik@verizon.net>
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 8:27 am
Subject: I'm Sorry to Have to Ask This

David,

I already know the answer, and I apologize in advance for asking, but have you ever denied the Holocaust?  I ask because a man named Joe Elliott just posted a thread in the JFK Assassination Forum claiming that you have denied the Holocaust. 

Mike



Online Joe Elliott

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Re: Dr. Mantik and the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2020, 11:57:21 PM »
I contacted Dr. Mantik, whom I have known for years, and informed him of your sleazy claim that he has denied the Holocaust. I already knew this was false because I have heard him condemn Hitler and the Nazis on several occasions. My e-mail to him and his reply, both sent today, are below:

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:17 PM David Mantik <davidmantik@verizon.net> wrote:

Mike,

Of course not.

Ask him to cite my comment.

Why would anyone promulgate such a lie?

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Griffith <michael.t.griffith@gmail.com>
To: David Mantik <davidmantik@verizon.net>
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 8:27 am
Subject: I'm Sorry to Have to Ask This

David,

I already know the answer, and I apologize in advance for asking, but have you ever denied the Holocaust?  I ask because a man named Joe Elliott just posted a thread in the JFK Assassination Forum claiming that you have denied the Holocaust. 

Mike

You lied to Dr. Mantik when you said I accused him of being a Holocaust denier.

I was clearly referring to Dr. Mantik and Dr. Fetzer saying the Zapruder film is a hoax. And referring to Dr. Fetzer as being the Holocaust denier, which he is notorious for. And criticizing Dr. Mantik for associating with such a person, whom people knew was unbalanced during the time the worked together.

You are a dishonest person. You withhold information when you want a favorable opinion from Dr. Zacharko. You even lie to Dr. Mantik.

Did you tell him where he can find my original post? Of course not.


In addition, you’re are an apologist for the Southern Confederate cause, which people can check out below:

http://michaelgriffith1.tripod.com/griffitharticles2.htm


You are creating a smoke screen to avoid a couple of simple questions you cannot answer:

Questions:

Why should Dr. Mantik and you claim that the fast-neuromuscular spasm in a human has been established as being impossible, or highly unlikely, when this can only be established as impossible or unlikely by running tests on human subjects?

Wouldn’t one have to run these experiments first, before making these claims?


Offline Jerry Freeman

  • Hero Member
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  • Posts: 2559
Re: Dr. Mantik and the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2020, 12:18:42 AM »
You lied to Dr. Mantik when you said I accused him of being a Holocaust denier. 
::)

 
 

 

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