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Author Topic: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.  (Read 650 times)

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2020, 02:30:46 AM »

Quote
The other traditional explanation for the head snap has been the "neuromuscular reaction." This was first proposed to the HSCA not by any neuroscience specialist, but by a wound ballistics expert based on his viewing old films of goats being shot in the head. To date no official testimony has been obtained from appropriate specialists (the neuroscientists) on this question. At the very least, interspecies differences in neurophysiology would leave this conclusion open at least to some doubt. In addition, the usual reaction to such brain trauma is not the highly directed movement observed in the Zapruder film but rather random muscular activity.

It is unethical to run this experiment with humans, so we must limit ourselves to experiments on animals, like goats.

The movement of the goat is not random at all. Both the left and right half of the body move the same way. Both forelimbs kick forward. Both hindlimbs kick backwards. And the back arches. Just like what we see happen to JFK. Both the goat video and the Zapruder film, are consistent with a spurious signal down the spinal cord telling all muscles to contract, causing the stronger muscle of each pair to move a body part.



Quote
Even Alvarez concluded that the highly directional recoil seen in the Zapruder film required the application of an external force.

Dr. Alvarez was not a medical doctor but a great Physicist, so it is natural that he would look for the answer to be found in Physics.

So, essentially, we must conclude that the Jet Effect Hypothesis is false because some LNers support the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypotheses. And the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypotheses is false because some LNers support the Jet Effect Hypotheses. We can’t even consider the possibility that some LNers are wrong, while some are right, and that one of these hypotheses is true.



Quote
Yet another objection to the decerebrate rigidity invoked by the HSCA is the time of onset; even the HSCA admitted that this would develop only after several minutes. I have been unable to find any literature references that even hint that this reaction could occur within milliseconds in human subjects-as is required for the head snap as seen in the film. Furthermore, in a large collaborative study (A.E. Walker, Cerebral Death, 1981, p. 33) with over 500 patients who experienced cerebral death, 70% were limp when observed just before death and an additional 10% became limp at about the time of death. At the very least, therefore, based on all of these considerations, the attempt by the HSCA to implicate a neuromuscular reaction is open to serious doubt. Moreover, the minimum requirement has never been met-the appropriate experts have never been officially consulted.

But the goat starts to move within 40 ms of being shot through the brain. But, again, you feel that the opinion of armchair experts, who do not study the film of real animals being shot through the brain, should overrule what film actually shows us. And conclude that an animal being shot though the brain cannot react within 55 ms but instead would take several minutes to observe any body movement in either the goat or JFK.



Quote
An additional argument against a neuromuscular reaction is that the observed reaction in the film is much too fast to fit with such a reflex. By the analysis of more than one study, within the space of one Zapruder frame interval (55 msec), the head clearly moves backward. Typical human reflex times are 114 to 112 second (250 to 500 msec). This is an extraordinary discrepancy-a factor of 5 to 10, which, all by itself, makes this scenario quite unlikely. (Assassination Science, pp. 281-282, PDF copy available online at https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Assassination_Science.pdf)

But this claim is false because the goat in the video beings to move 40 milliseconds after being shot in the head. While typical animal reflexes do take longer than 40 ms, the neuromuscular spasm is much faster. But rather than accept what the film shows us, you decide that the armchair analysis of a doctor overrules what the film shows.


Well, you dodged all five of my questions. So I will ask them again.


Question 1:
Can you name a single article, a single book, that argues for the Neuromuscular Spasm as being the cause of JFK’s backward movement, that does not even mention the film of the goat?


If not, then this is not an irrelevant fact, but core of the claim of the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis and should have been mentioned to Dr. Zacharko before asking for this opinion, since this might have altered his conclusions.



Question 2:
Should an authority be informed of the main argument, the main piece of evidence, of both sides before being asked for his opinion? Yes or No.


Or is it sometimes best to keep him in ignorance.



Question 3:
Should the decision to dismiss the main piece of evidence presented by LNers, be made by Dr. Zacharko or Michael Griffith?



Question 4:

In the future, will you tell people that JFK’s head was thrown back violently, or tell them it moved backwards at 2 mph?



Question 5:

And the most important question of all. Do you believe a bullet only transfers momentum to a target while it is passing through the target?

Or do you believe a bullet can continue to transfer momentum to a target even after it’s left the body. Accounting for the gradual increase of speed of JFK’s backwards from 0 mph to 2 mph over the course of a quarter of a second.




I’m going to keep asking questions 1 through 5 until you answer them.

Online Michael T. Griffith

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2020, 01:34:34 PM »
It is unethical to run this experiment with humans, so we must limit ourselves to experiments on animals, like goats.

The movement of the goat is not random at all. Both the left and right half of the body move the same way. Both forelimbs kick forward. Both hindlimbs kick backwards. And the back arches. Just like what we see happen to JFK. Both the goat video and the Zapruder film, are consistent with a spurious signal down the spinal cord telling all muscles to contract, causing the stronger muscle of each pair to move a body part.

This is quack material, downright nutty. But it's all you have because you will not allow yourself to consider the evidence of a shot from the front.

You keep ignoring the point that neuromuscular reactions in humans are not fast enough to cause the movement we see in the Zapruder film. Several scholars have made this point, including Thompson and Mantik, but you keep ignoring it.

You also keep ignoring Dr. Riley's point, reinforced by Dr. Mantik, that goat and human neurobiology and neurophysics are very different.

And are you ever going to deal with Dr. Zacharko's point that the neuromuscular-reaction theory is "simply nonsense"? Let's read his bottom line on this nutty theory:

"Neural damage per se associated with bullet entry will not cause exaggerated head movement of the type you see in the Zapruder film. In fact there are no brain sites that will. This neuromuscular reactivity argument is simply nonsense. . . .

"Actually there is a system which is referred to as the extrapyramidal motor system, which runs from the mesencephalon to the forebrain. It controls voluntary movement. If this system was to discharge, you would effect gross motor output. Such discharge would typically represent the invasion of seizure like activity to motor areas. It would not be coordinated and certainly not of the type evident in the Zapruder film. The bottom line is that the head movements are reactions to the direction of bullet entry. They are not the product of central nervous system damage."

Dr. Alvarez was not a medical doctor but a great Physicist, so it is natural that he would look for the answer to be found in Physics.

Yeah, who needs science when it comes to avoiding conclusions you don't like, right?

So, essentially, we must conclude that the Jet Effect Hypothesis is false because some LNers support the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypotheses. And the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypotheses is false because some LNers support the Jet Effect Hypotheses. We can’t even consider the possibility that some LNers are wrong, while some are right, and that one of these hypotheses is true.

Which is a very long-winded way of dancing around the point that even some of your fellow WC apologists can see that the neuromuscular-reaction theory is "simply nonsense."

But the goat starts to move within 40 ms of being shot through the brain. But, again, you feel that the opinion of armchair experts, who do not study the film of real animals being shot through the brain, should overrule what film actually shows us. And conclude that an animal being shot though the brain cannot react within 55 ms but instead would take several minutes to observe any body movement in either the goat or JFK.

In other words, never mind what we know from science about the speed of human neuromuscular reactions, and never mind the impossibility of the physics involved with the violent reversal of movement. Nah, forget about all that stuff and instead cling for dear life onto some irrelevant video of a goat being shot in the head with its head secured, and never mind that goats and humans have very different neurobiology and neurophysics.

But this claim is false because the goat in the video beings to move 40 milliseconds after being shot in the head.

Was JFK a goat? Is that your theory but you're just not saying it? Goat, goat, goat, goat. Here, read this carefully: Goats and humans have different neurobiology and neurophysics. JFK was not a goat. Who cares about the reactions of a goat when we know that human neuromuscular reactions are not fast enough to produce the movement we see in the Zapruder film?

While typical animal reflexes do take longer than 40 ms, the neuromuscular spasm is much faster. But rather than accept what the film shows us, you decide that the armchair analysis of a doctor overrules what the film shows.

No, the problem is that rather than accept what science tells us about the speed of human neuromuscular reactions, and rather than accept the fact that humans are not goats, and rather than accept the fact that human and goat neurobiology and neurophysics are different (which most high schoolers would guess just based on common sense), and rather than deal honestly with the impossibility of the physics of the split-second reversal of the movement of JFK's head--rather than accept these facts, you keep citing this ridiculous goat film.

And, we are not talking about one "armchair analysis of a doctor" but of the analyses of several doctors (one of whom is also a physicist), two neuroscientists (Riley and Zacharko), several forensic pathologists (including a former head of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences), and at least three physicists (Alvarez, Snyder, and Chambers).

Well, you dodged all five of my questions. So I will ask them again.

Okay, let's deal with your silly questions.

Question 1:
Can you name a single article, a single book, that argues for the Neuromuscular Spasm as being the cause of JFK’s backward movement, that does not even mention the film of the goat?

The goat film again?!  Given that those who argue for the neuromuscular-reaction theory must ignore a mountain of science to even float the theory, I have no doubt that they throw in the irrelevant goat film to support their claim--apparently, they, like you, just don't care about the differences between goat and human neurobiology and neurophysics, nor about what science tells us about the speed of human neuromuscular reactions.

If not, then this is not an irrelevant fact, but core of the claim of the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis and should have been mentioned to Dr. Zacharko before asking for this opinion, since this might have altered his conclusions.

Let me ask you a serious question in return: Do you think Dr. Zacharko would change his mind, that he would decide that the neuromuscular-reaction theory is not "simply nonsense," if he watched the goat film? Do you?

And you know that Dr. Zacharko was not just basing his answer on my description of the Zapruder film but that he had watched the film himself, right? You know that, right?

If the "core" of the neuromuscular-spasm theory is the irrelevant goat film, that should tell you what a ridiculous, unscientific theory it is. As Dr. Zacharko said, it is "simply nonsense" because science tells us that humans do not move the way JFK does in response to neuromuscular activity. Let's read Dr. Zacharko's point about this again:

"If this system was to discharge, you would effect gross motor output. Such discharge would typically represent the invasion of seizure like activity to motor areas. It would not be coordinated and certainly not of the type evident in the Zapruder film.

"The bottom line is that the head movements are reactions to the direction of bullet entry. They are not the product of central nervous system damage."

Question 2: Should an authority be informed of the main argument, the main piece of evidence, of both sides before being asked for his opinion? Yes or No. Or is it sometimes best to keep him in ignorance.

LOL! So the goat film is the "main piece of evidence" for your nutty neuromuscular-spasm theory?! Actually, I probably did your nutty theory a favor by not mentioning the goat film to Dr. Zacharko. Truth be told, it never occurred to me to mention that irrelevant film. Instead, I carefully described JFK's movements from Z312 onward and quoted two prominent authors on the science and physics of those movements.

Again, do you think Dr. Zacharko would change his mind based on the goat film? Do you think he would conclude that the human extrapyramidal motor system behaves differently than the way he described it, if he saw the goat film? After all, as you can see from his full response, he described in considerable detail the workings of the human extrapyramidal motor system, and also the pons, the medulla, and the cerebellum, and then explained that the extrapyramidal motor system would not cause the movement of JFK's head seen in the Zapruder film.

Question 3: Should the decision to dismiss the main piece of evidence presented by LNers, be made by Dr. Zacharko or Michael Griffith?

I guess it’s time for another review for you: Goats are not humans. Goats and humans have very different neurobiology and neurophysics. The goat film is irrelevant. JFK's movements are a matter of humanneurobiology and neurophysics, and Dr. Zacharko addressed them on that basis.

Again, do you think the goat film would cause Dr. Zacharko to change his conclusion that the relevant part of human neuroanatomy--the extrapyramidal motor system--would magically behave differently than he described it?

Question 4: In the future, will you tell people that JFK’s head was thrown back violently, or tell them it moved backwards at 2 mph?

Oh. My. Goodness. You are so lost in lone-gunman delusion that you can't see the forest for the huge trees. Anyone not blinded by lone-gunman denial can see with their own eyes that JFK's head and upper body are thrown violently backward and to the left from Z313-323. You are the first WC apologist I have ever personally encountered who describes that movement as “gradual” and who denies that it is violent.

And, again, what makes this movement even more incredible is that it begins a split second after the head moves 2.3 inches forward in 1/18th/second.

Question 5: And the most important question of all. Do you believe a bullet only transfers momentum to a target while it is passing through the target? Or do you believe a bullet can continue to transfer momentum to a target even after it’s left the body. Accounting for the gradual increase of speed of JFK’s backwards from 0 mph to 2 mph over the course of a quarter of a second.

Sigh. . . . Well, first of all, a 190% increase in speed in five frames, going from 0 to 1.9 mph in 5/18th/second, by an object that has just moved 2.3 inches forward (the opposite direction) in 1/18th/second is not "gradual" by any rational analysis. This is the kind of nonsense that you must posit when you are locked into an absurd theory of the shooting and the head movement. Again, anyone can look at the Zapruder film and see with their own eyes that Kennedy's head and upper body are propelled violently backward and to the left.

As for how human bodies respond to bullet strikes, it depends on the type of bullet, the type of rifle, and the action, or lack thereof, by the person just before they are struck. There is war footage that shows prisoners being executed by nearly point-blank gunfire where the prisoners exhibit no violent movements but simply fall down. There is other war footage that shows prisoners' heads moving in the same direction as the bullet that strikes them: forward when shot from behind, and backward when shot from the front. Connally's right shoulder was pushed noticeably downward by the bullet that struck him in the back, and he said it felt like someone hit him hard in the back with their fist. Martin Luther King was knocked backward by the bullet that struck him in the front.

The problem with the Zapruder film, i.e., an indication that it has been altered, is that no bullet would cause JFK's head and upper body to reverse direction so rapidly. The original film showed two noticeable reactions: JFK's head being knocked forward and then JFK's head being knocked backward but not as fiercely as we see in the current film.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 07:16:54 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2020, 05:15:05 PM »

Quote
The other traditional explanation for the head snap has been the "neuromuscular reaction." This was first proposed to the HSCA not by any neuroscience specialist, but by a wound ballistics expert based on his viewing old films of goats being shot in the head.

It is irrelevant who presented the film. The film makes it clear that the Neuromuscular Spasm does occur with goats. There is no reason to assume it wouldn’t happen with humans as well.

Unlike Dr. Mantik, I do not assume the Neuromuscular Spasm is true or false. Initially, I did not believe in it. But when it became clear to me that JFK’s head did not move at a constant speed backwards, but acceleration from 0 to 2 mph, not instantly, but over the course of a quarter second, it became apparent to me that the Neuromuscular Spasm is the only possible explanation. The Frontal Bullet Hypothesis does not explain this. The Jet Effect Hypothesis does not explain this. There was not nearly enough acceleration of the limousine to account for that (it only gained 0.1 mph during z313-z318, not 2.0 mph in speed). If the Neuromuscular Spasm is rejected out of hand, then we have no explanation for the quarter of a second acceleration of JFK’s head. Which is unacceptable.

It was the evidence, the Zapruder film, William Hoffman’s careful study of the Zapruder film, that compelled me to accept the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis. Not an arbitrary assumption on my part.



Quote
To date no official testimony has been obtained from appropriate specialists (the neuroscientists) on this question. At the very least, interspecies differences in neurophysiology would leave this conclusion open at least to some doubt.

But insufficient reasons to reject this hypothesis out of hand, as Dr. Mantik and you do. Just because it occurs in goats, but might not in humans, is no reason to reject it out of hand.



Quote
In addition, the usual reaction to such brain trauma is not the highly directed movement observed in the Zapruder film but rather random muscular activity.

But it doesn’t matter if Dr. Mantik thinks that, in theory, if such a Neuromuscular Spasm occurred, the muscle activity would be random. The goat film does not show random movement. It shows the goat movement governed by its stronger muscles. The muscles that work against gravity are generally stronger than those that work with it. Hence the forelimbs swing forward and up. The hindlimbs swing backwards and up. The back arches. The movements on the right half of the body are mirrored by what happens on the left.



Question

Should we conclude that if a goat experienced such a Neuromuscular Spasm, that it’s muscle movement would be random, because Dr. Mantik thinks it would be if it occurred?

Or should we be guided by what the film shows, and conclude the movement of the goat would be quite predictable and the stronger muscles would rule?

Which is the more reasonable approach




The goat’s movements were not random, nor was JFK’s. The stronger muscles are on the back on the body, not the front, on a human. We would expect that if a Neurological Spasm, if it happens, it would cause JFK’s head to go backwards, as it did. We would expect JFK’s back to arch like it did with the goat, and also did with JFK, causing his torso to go back. We would expect his arms to raise up, which it did, like the goat’s forelimbs rose up. And we would expect this to start happening within 55 milliseconds, as it did with the goat, and also with JFK.

The Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis matches what happens to JFK to a ‘T’. It even explains why the acceleration of the head took place over a quarter of a second, as more and more muscles get activated by the spurious signal sent down the spinal cord. And not within a millisecond, as would be the case if the head was pushed by a frontal bullet.


Quote
Even Alvarez concluded that the highly directional recoil seen in the Zapruder film required the application of an external force.

Answered before and will answer again. Dr. Alvarez was a physicist, a great physicist, which Dr. Mantik is not, and never will be. And so, Dr. Alvarez would naturally look to explanations in Physics, not in Biology.


Quote
Yet another objection to the decerebrate rigidity invoked by the HSCA is the time of onset; even the HSCA admitted that this would develop only after several minutes.

Really? The HSCA thought the decerebrate rigidity explained JFK’s backwards head movement, but did not realize that the head movement happened immediately after the head shot. They thought the movement happened several minutes later?

Why would the HSCA think the effects of a Neuromuscular Spasm would be delayed by several minutes, when it occurred immediately with the goat?

Is Dr. Mantik nuts? Or misrepresenting what the HSCA thought?



Quote
I have been unable to find any literature references that even hint that this reaction could occur within milliseconds in human subjects-as is required for the head snap as seen in the film.

How many times do doctors observe someone being shot in the head with a rifle bullet? How many times do doctors study films of people being shot in the head with a rifle bullet? Never. So, even if the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypotheses is true for humans, how many times would we expect to see literature references to it? Never.



Quote
Furthermore, in a large collaborative study (A.E. Walker, Cerebral Death, 1981, p. 33) with over 500 patients who experienced cerebral death, 70% were limp when observed just before death and an additional 10% became limp at about the time of death. At the very least, therefore, based on all of these considerations, the attempt by the HSCA to implicate a neuromuscular reaction is open to serious doubt. Moreover, the minimum requirement has never been met-the appropriate experts have never been officially consulted.

Yes, we should assume that being shot through the brain with a rifle bullet would have the same effect on a person as who experiences a more peaceful cerebral death. People who die from a cerebral death, or from diabetes, or from cancer don’t experience a Neuromuscular Spasm, so why should we think that people killed by rifle bullets should react any differently?

Just because one is a doctor, does not mean that one cannot be an idiot, in certain ways.



Quote
Moreover, the minimum requirement has never been met-the appropriate experts have never been officially consulted.

And the minimum requirements are for a person to be filmed while being shot through the brain with a rifle bullet. And having the appropriate experts study the film. A study that will never allowed to take place and can never take place.

None of this justifies assuming that the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis can’t be true for humans.



Quote
An additional argument against a neuromuscular reaction is that the observed reaction in the film is much too fast to fit with such a reflex. By the analysis of more than one study, within the space of one Zapruder frame interval (55 msec), the head clearly moves backward. Typical human reflex times are 114 to 112 second (250 to 500 msec). This is an extraordinary discrepancy-a factor of 5 to 10, which, all by itself, makes this scenario quite unlikely. (Assassination Science, pp. 281-282, PDF copy available online at https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Assassination_Science.pdf)

But the goat starts to move its body 40 ms after being shot. So, if the Neuromuscular Spasm is also true in humans, as it is in goats, we would expect it would be a fast reaction too, and should started within 55 ms, as we observe in the Zapruder film.



It should be noted that Dr. Mantik’s judgment is highly questionable, and this is not only apparent from the quotes you provided. In books he helped write, he argues that the Zapruder film and the other films were faked. And faked well enough to not contradict each other. And somehow the conspirators got control of all the films and photographs, so they wouldn’t get trip up by a film they didn’t know about.

And Dr. Mantik collaborated with Dr. James Fetzer. They wrote books together. A more disreputable person to collaborate with is hard to imagine. Surely, Dr. Mantik’s judgement is questionable.



I have taken pains to answer every point you bring up, which is a lot of points. While you dodge almost all my questions, though I only make a comparative few.

So just answer the one highlighted question I have earlier in this post, and my Question 5 from my last two posts which I will repeat again here:

Question 5:

And the most important question of all. Do you believe a bullet only transfers momentum to a target while it is passing through the target?

Or do you believe a bullet can continue to transfer momentum to a target even after it’s left the body. Accounting for the gradual increase of speed of JFK’s backwards from 0 mph to 2 mph over the course of a quarter of a second.



This is a question you dodge because if you answer, yes, the bullet can still continue to transfer momentum to a head after it passes through it, you will sound like an idiot.

But if you say it couldn’t, then you have no explanation for JFK’s head acceleration lasting for a quarter of a second from z313 through z318.

Online Michael T. Griffith

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2020, 07:26:01 PM »
It is irrelevant who presented the film. The film makes it clear that the Neuromuscular Spasm does occur with goats. There is no reason to assume it wouldn’t happen with humans as well.

And on that note of resumed quackery, I think I need to stop wasting time trying to reason with you. There is no "assumption" that goat and human neuromuscular reactions will not be the same: we know from science, as Dr. Riley and Dr. Mantik have pointed out, that goat and human neurobiology and neurophysics are different. We also know from science that no human neuromuscular reaction is going to be fast enough, much less strong enough in such a localized manner, to cause the split-second and powerful reversal of motion we see with Kennedy's head and torso in the Zapruder film.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to waste any more time on this nonsense. As Zacharko says, the neuromuscular-reaction theory is "simply nonsense."


Online Joe Elliott

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2020, 07:58:27 PM »

And while I was not afraid to answer each of your many points, you are afraid to answer my comparatively few questions. So, you dodge them by saying you have grown tired of the conversation. Because you have no good answers.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2020, 12:36:40 AM »
It should be noted that Dr. Mantik’s judgment is highly questionable, and this is not only apparent from the quotes you provided.

“Mantik doesn’t believe the things that I believe, therefore his judgment is questionable.”

 ::)

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2020, 01:45:34 AM »

“Mantik doesn’t believe the things that I believe, therefore his judgment is questionable.”

 ::)

The primary reason I think Dr. David Mantik’s judgment is questionable, is not because he disagrees with me, or even because he has so often agreed with Dr. James Fetzer, but because his fundamental approach to a problem.

The movement of JFK’s head is a problem that needs to be solved. Why does it move forward (z312-z313), then backwards (z313-z318)? What caused this?

We need to consider all possibilities, even the ones that may sound far-fetched to some people. Five hundred years ago, the possibility that there were some worlds that didn’t revolve around the Earth seemed pretty far-fetched. But the correct response is to not start by discarding all the far-fetched ideas. The correct response is to keep your mind open, and let the evidence determine what you believe. Not to decided before hand what is true and skip looking through telescopes, or looking for excuses to ignore what the telescope show. The telescopes, even though they are unperfect instruments, show points of light, appearing in different patterns near Jupiter. Sometimes three on the left and one on the right, or none on the left and three on the right. But never more than four.

The correct conclusion is that there are probably 4 bodies, large enough to see, which orbit around Jupiter, like the Moon orbits around the Earth. Not to say:

“But I already know what is true and what is not true. So, I already no that all objects in the sky orbit the Earth. And that is that.”



On the question of JFK’s head movement, his stance is:

“I already know everything about the human body. I know the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis cannot be true”.

This is the wrong approach. It should not be tossed out before one looks at the data.

The movement might be explained by Physics, by the “Frontal Bullet Hypothesis” or the “Jet Effect Hypothesis”. But if either hypothesis is correct, the head and body should move with constant momentum. Or the change in momentum has to be consistent with observed acceleration of the limousine. That is simple Physics. All change in momentum must take place within 1 to 2 milliseconds, while the bullet is within the head, if the “Frontal Bullet Hypothesis” is correct. Or within 5 to 10 milliseconds if the “Jet Effect Hypothesis” is correct, the time it would take for the head to explode.

But if the “Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis” is correct, then the head may accelerate during a more extensive period, like 250 milliseconds, and accelerate more than can be accounted for by the much smaller acceleration of the limousine. And this is what the Zapruder film shows, as measured carefully by Physics graduate student William Hoffman.

Anyone who accepts the “Frontal Bullet Hypothesis” or the “Jet Effect Hypothesis”, and did so before they looked at the William Hoffman data, on the speed of the head and the speed of the limousine, has questionable judgement. They are putting the cart before the horse. You must look at the data, then form your conclusions.

Anyone who agrees with me that the “Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis” is correct, but formed this conclusion without looking at the William Hoffman data, has questionable judgement.

Only someone who has looked at the data, sees that it shows acceleration of the head for over a quarter of a second, which cannot be explained by the much smaller acceleration of the limousine, and then concludes that the “Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis” is the best hypothesis, has good judgement.

None of us are going to be right about everything, but at least don’t’ put the cart before the horse.

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2020, 03:03:01 PM »

Earlier, Mr. Griffith made the following post:

Dr. David Mantik, who is both a physicist and a medical doctor (radiation oncology), explains some of the problems with the neuromuscular reaction theory:

Quote
The other traditional explanation for the head snap has been the "neuromuscular reaction." This was first proposed to the HSCA not by any neuroscience specialist, but by a wound ballistics expert based on his viewing old films of goats being shot in the head. To date no official testimony has been obtained from appropriate specialists (the neuroscientists) on this question. At the very least, interspecies differences in neurophysiology would leave this conclusion open at least to some doubt. In addition, the usual reaction to such brain trauma is not the highly directed movement observed in the Zapruder film but rather random muscular activity. Even Alvarez concluded that the highly directional recoil seen in the Zapruder film required the application of an external force.

Yet another objection to the decerebrate rigidity invoked by the HSCA is the time of onset; even the HSCA admitted that this would develop only after several minutes. I have been unable to find any literature references that even hint that this reaction could occur within milliseconds in human subjects-as is required for the head snap as seen in the film. Furthermore, in a large collaborative study (A.E. Walker, Cerebral Death, 1981, p. 33) with over 500 patients who experienced cerebral death, 70% were limp when observed just before death and an additional 10% became limp at about the time of death. At the very least, therefore, based on all of these considerations, the attempt by the HSCA to implicate a neuromuscular reaction is open to serious doubt. Moreover, the minimum requirement has never been met-the appropriate experts have never been officially consulted.

An additional argument against a neuromuscular reaction is that the observed reaction in the film is much too fast to fit with such a reflex. By the analysis of more than one study, within the space of one Zapruder frame interval (55 msec), the head clearly moves backward. Typical human reflex times are 114 to 112 second (250 to 500 msec). This is an extraordinary discrepancy-a factor of 5 to 10, which, all by itself, makes this scenario quite unlikely. (Assassination Science, pp. 281-282, PDF copy available online at https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Assassination_Science.pdf)


But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information.


On the question of “Could a bullet from the front caused JFK’s head to move backwards in the manner seen in the Zapruder film”, Dr. Mantik said:

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“I do not believe that a frontal shot, with any reasonable sized rifle or bullet, could produce the observed head snap — too much energy is required.”   
   James H. Fetzer, Ph.D., ed., Assassination Science (Chicago: Catfeet Press, 1998), p. 264.

On this point, I agree with Dr. Mantik. Although I think the gradual acceleration backwards over a quarter of a second is a more telling point then the too large momentum that JFK’s head and torso ended up with, to be explained by a bullet.


Yes, it’s true, Dr. Mantik does not think that JFK’s head movement could be explained by a neuromuscular spasm. But he also doesn’t think it can be explained by a bullet from the front.

So much for Griffith’s notion that “this violent backward motion” (actually a 2-mph backward motion) can only be explained by a frontal bullet.

What is Dr. Mantik’s solution to this motion? He goes with his joint Fetzer-Mantik theory that the Zapruder film was altered. Altered to give the impression to one that does not analyze the film that there was a frontal shot. Yes, this makes perfect sense. And I guessed altered all the other films and photographs to make them all match. And didn’t worry about any film or photograph that they might be unaware of.

If Griffith is going to use Mantik for support, he should note that in addition to rejecting a hypothesis that I support, he also rejects the hypothesis that Griffith supports.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2020, 03:29:53 PM »
Earlier, Mr. Griffith made the following post:



But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information.


On the question of “Could a bullet from the front caused JFK’s head to move backwards in the manner seen in the Zapruder film”, Dr. Mantik said:

On this point, I agree with Dr. Mantik. Although I think the gradual acceleration backwards over a quarter of a second is a more telling point then the too large momentum that JFK’s head and torso ended up with, to be explained by a bullet.


Yes, it’s true, Dr. Mantik does not think that JFK’s head movement could be explained by a neuromuscular spasm. But he also doesn’t think it can be explained by a bullet from the front.

So much for Griffith’s notion that “this violent backward motion” (actually a 2-mph backward motion) can only be explained by a frontal bullet.

What is Dr. Mantik’s solution to this motion? He goes with his joint Fetzer-Mantik theory that the Zapruder film was altered. Altered to give the impression to one that does not analyze the film that there was a frontal shot. Yes, this makes perfect sense. And I guessed altered all the other films and photographs to make them all match. And didn’t worry about any film or photograph that they might be unaware of.

If Griffith is going to use Mantik for support, he should note that in addition to rejecting a hypothesis that I support, he also rejects the hypothesis that Griffith supports.

'But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information

Good call. That sums up CTers/JAQers (aka OAKers) everywhere. In short, they cheat.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 03:49:55 PM by Bill Chapman »

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2020, 06:35:47 PM »

'But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information

Good call. That sums up CTers/JAQers (aka OAKers) everywhere. In short, they cheat.

Hello Bill

Yes. If I was a CTer wanting an opinion from an expert, like Dr. Zacharko, on the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis, it would only be fair to give one piece of evidence from the other side. And the principle piece of evidence that the proponents of the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis proponents have is video of animals being shot through the brain, like the video of the goat that was shot in U. S. Army tests back in the 1948. No expert weighing in on a subject should ever give an opinion without knowing the principle evidence that they other side has. Never. With no exceptions.

Sometimes Michael Griffith can be pretty funny. In one of his articles back in 1997 called:

Compelling Evidence – A New Look at the Assassination of President Kennedy

He states on page 10 that:

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Many WC apologists now assert that the fierce backward motion of Kennedy’s head and upper body was “a seizure-like neuromuscular reaction to major damage inflicted to nerve centers in the brain” combined with a so-called “jet effect’. Some goats were even shot in an attempt to demonstrate the plausibility of the neuromuscular-spasm theory. However, this explanation is highly speculative at best, and the goat tests do not explain the reaction of Kennedy’s head and body as seen in the Zapruder film. In addition, the speed of Kennedy’s reaction appears to rule out this theory.

The goat tests were run to bolster the neuromuscular-spasm theory? The “goat” films were made by the U. S. Army back in 1948, to learn about the immediate effects of bullets on humans, except they obviously could not use humans.

I like to go over Michael’s paragraph in more detail, just for fun, with my comments in boldface:

Many WC apologists
Why don’t we call CTers KGB apologists, (or whatever the KGB calls itself these days) since the KGB has been financially supporting CTers, like Mark Lane since the 1960’s. Certainly the CTers have been better financed by the KGB than LNers have been by the CIA. I suppose that, just like me, you’re still waiting for your first check.
now assert that the fierce backward motion of Kennedy’s head and upper body
Michael refers to the backward head and torso movement as “is violent and rapid” or “this violent backward motion” or “fierce backward motion”, even though the top speed did not quite get to 2 mph. Calling the motion: violent and rapid makes one tend to rule out the motion as being caused by anything other than a powerful rifle bullet. Calling it a 2-mph motion does not have that effect.
was “a seizure-like neuromuscular reaction to major damage inflicted to nerve centers in the brain” combined with a so-called “jet effect’.
Some goats were even shot in an attempt to demonstrate the plausibility of the neuromuscular-spasm theory.
I guess the government was planning this assassination much longer than we realized, clear back in 1948.
However, this explanation is highly speculative at best,
The Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis is speculative but the “Push from a Frontal Bullet Hypothesis” is not? All hypotheses are speculative until one checks them out with the evidence, like the Zapruder film. One does not eliminate hypotheses without first checking the evidence.
and explain the reaction of Kennedy’s head and body as seen in the Zapruder film.
I don’t think his grammar expresses what he is trying to say very well.
In addition, the speed of Kennedy’s reaction appears to rule out this theory.
The goat start moving parts in its body after 40 milliseconds, and this rules out Kennedy reaction which started after 55 milliseconds?

By the way “JAQers” and “OAKers” are new terms to me. What do they stand for?

Joe

 

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