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Author Topic: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?  (Read 78788 times)

Online Charles Collins

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By the way, are those of you who are relying on Howard Brennan's identification of Oswald aware of Brennan's behavior when the HSCA attempted to interview him and asked him to affirm the accuracy of his previous statements?

When the HSCA contacted Brennan, they were hoping to interview him at his home in Texas. But, according to an HSCA outside contact report dated March 13, 1978, Brennan "stated that the only way he will talk to anyone from this Committee, is if he is subpoenaed." A month later the committee asked him to reconsider and, when he refused, they informed him that he would be subpoenaed to testify. The HSCA contact report on Brennen recounted Brennan's reply:

"[Brennan said he] would not come to Washington and that he would fight any subpoena. And, in fact, Brennan was belligerent about not testifying. He stated that he would avoid any subpoena by getting his doctor to state that it would be bad for his health to testify about the assassination. He further told me that even if he was forced to come to Washington he would simply not testify if he didn't want to." (HSCA contact report, 4/20/78, Record No. 180-10068-10381)

Between May 15 and May 19, 1978, HSCA staffers made 11 attempts to present Brennan with previous statements he had made. They left a copy of his previous statements with him on May 19, along with a form that asked him to affirm that his previous statements were correct. But when the staffers returned a few days later to collect the form, they found that Brennan had refused to sign it. The HSCA went as far as granting Brennan immunity from prosecution, but he would not budge.

Now, gee, why do you suppose Brennan behaved in this manner and refused to affirm that his previous statements were accurate, even after he was granted immunity from prosecution?


It appears to be "against your religion" to believe a word that Howard Brennan says. But for anyone reading this that has a less biased view, here is Brennan's side of the story from his book "Eyewitness to History":


After my return to Texas I immediately started to work again and by this time the calls about the assassination had almost stopped. Life had finally gotten back to where it had been before November 22, 1963. Then suddenly and without warning I had a massive heart attack in August of 1970. I don't know for sure if the heart attack was the result of the many years of stress brought on due to my being a witness of the assassination, but I do know without a doubt that what I went through for almost four years had taken a lot out of me. My health before 1963 was excellent and now I was suffering from a series of stress related illnesses which had culminated with the heart attack.

For 22 days I was in Intensive Care and the doctors doubted I would survive. I had a desperate determination to live to see my grandchildren grow up. I was only 51 at the time and I kept thinking, "Howard, that's just too young to die."


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.
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In the years between Howard Brennan's initial debilitating heart attack in 1970 and 1978, he had a long recovery time and against his doctors' advice tried to work in a supervisory position. He continued to have more serious heart related problems and finally took his doctors' advice and retired for good by 1978.
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.
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In April of 1978 I got a call from Washington. I had heard that hearings were going to be held by a special Congressional Committee on Assassinations, chaired by Rep. Louis Stokes. A sub-committee on the assassination of John F. Kennedy was headed by Rep. Richardson Preyer. The call was for me to give testimony to this committee. Suddenly, all the agony I had experienced over several years returned. I believe the name of the man who first called me was Ken Klein. He said a group would be in Dallas in the next few days and wanted to interview me. I felt I had done as much for my country as I could and told him so. "I have whashed my hands of the whole thing." I said. "There is no way that I can give you an interview." The man said, "Mr. Brennan, this is most important. You have to help us." "I don't HAVE to do anything." I said. "But I'll tell you what I will do. If you do it my way, I'll cooperate. If any of your people want to see me, have them call the Police Chief "Cagy Evans in Kaufman. He will determine if I should see you. I won't see any more than one or two at a time. I live out in the country and it would be difficult for you to find. This is the only way I can see you." I knew that Chief Evans would shield me from anyone  who was not authentic. He knew my condition and would not let me be exposed to too much pressure. I did not want any newsman coming out for any kind of interview. I had been contacted by hundreds of the media, wanting this or that and I couldn't see one more newsman if my life depended on it. Chief Evans would prevent that. The Congressional Investigating Committee started sending investigarors to Dallas within a day or two and they came to my house. I was just as determined that I would not speak with them concerning the assassination of J.F.K. I had told it all, at least I thought I had and didn't think I could take one more inquiry.

A staff investigator by the name of Day came, seeking help. He was polite and I immediately liked him. I didn't feel I could help him, but we had a good rapport. When he was ready to leave, he encountered something  he never had to deal with in Washington, he was stuck in the mud! We tried as best we could to pull him out, but without success. Finally, we called a neighbor who had a large tractor who came and got him out.

I didn't know what the next move would be. They had come to my house at three or four day intervals for two weeks or so and then one day a Mr. Lawrence J. Delse, served me a congressional subpoena. It commanded that I appear in Washington to testify before the sub-committee within the next few days. I was stunned. It was April 28, 1978. For fifteen years this one event had controlled my life, driven me from one corner of the world to the other, played an instrumental part in my heart attack and the break down of my health, been a factor in my early retirement and now they wanted me to go back to Washington and start all over again.

"Mr. Delse," I said, "I can't accept this subpoena. I cannot go to Washington to testify." He looked at me as if I had just defiled the flag. "What do you mean?' he said. "I mean that my health will not permit me to leave here or be involved in this investigation in any manner!" I didn't mean to appear impertinent, but I finally felt I had had enough. "Mr. Brennan," he said, "This is not something you can make a decision about, you have to obey a congressional subpoena!" "I have had several heart attacks and my doctor will not permit it. If you don't believe me, you can call him. His name is Dr. Eugene Mason!" I gave him the phone number and sat back. Mr. Delse seemed not to know what to do. It was the first time apparently that anyone had refused to accept a subpoena. He said, "May I use your phone?" I replied, "of course." He put through a call to Washington talking with several people before finally reaching the Chairman, Congressman Stokes. After he hung up, he said that Mr. Stokes would be calling back after he conferred with Dr. Mason. We waited for several minutes and the phone rang. Mr. Delse answered and then said Mr. Stokes wanted to talk to me. I took the phone and Mr. Stokes told me he had talked to my doctor and was told that he should 'dump the whole thing.' "Will you cooperate?" Louis Stokes asked. "I'm sorry but I can't," I told him. "I'm not physically able to testify and I don't think your committee would want to force the issue with someone who had a medical background like mine." "Let me talk to Mr. Delse again," he said. Mr Delse took the phone and was told to give me anything I wanted. "I want something in writing," I said. "I want a note that shows I didn't ignore this subpoena." Together we sat down and formulated a note. He was not willing to excuse me from testifying, since it was a congressional matter He was authorized to give a note granting a two week extension. (22) He said I would be contacted again as to when and if I was to appear. We both knew that, even as we were talking, it would be the end of things. As Mr. Delse backed his car out of our driveway and headed toward Dallas, I stood and watched his car disappear over the horizon. His going signalled the end of it all; all the nightmares, all the intrusions, all the fears, all the tensions, all the sleepless nights, all the dreaded phone calls, all the insinuations, all the abuse by the press. For the first time in 14 years, five months and six days, I was finally free. The burden of being the only eyewitness to the assassination of President Kennedy was lifted. I didn't have anyghing else to dread.


Footnote 22: (Atere extensive phone calls by Mr. Lawrence Delse, to Mr. Ken Klein in Washington, his immediate superior and the Honorable Louis Stokes who headed the sub-committee on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy, Mr. Delse wrote in long-hand on a legal tablet the following message. Mr. Delse had come with a subpoena for Howard Brennan to appear four days later, but conversation with Dr. Eugene Mason of Dallas convinced them not to push the subpoena. Legally, they could not allow anyone to ignore a Congressional summon, so they compromised by granting an "extension" that would simply fade away into oblivion.

"This summons from the House of Representatives of the Congress of the United States of America for Howard L. Brennan to appear before them on May 2, 1978 is now extended for a period of two weeks. During this period members of the Select Committee on Assassinations will contact Howard L. Brennan at his home to interview him. This has been agreed up by Ken Klein and Mr. Brennan."
Dated: April 28, 1978 signed by Lawrence J. Delse, Staff Investigator



« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 03:14:20 PM by Charles Collins »

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Online Martin Weidmann

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Of course it is. And it's hypocritical as well... I have never seen you mentioning any evidence that supports the CT view.
Besides, the damage to CE399 is minimal. Everybody knows about it and it is of little significance to the discussion about that bullet


> The bullet exhibits a somewhat flattened side and butt-end. One can see in my avatar the notable difference between the perfectly round black circle in which it sits, and the (damaged) oval shape of the bullet's butt-end. This establishes that Ce399 did not emerge 'pristine' as CTers would have one believe.


Oh please... your whining is getting annoying

This establishes that Ce399 did not emerge 'pristine' 

Really? Not one bullet emerges "pristine" when it is fired!

Quote

So, now you feel you have the right to tell other people how they should post?

> I have the right to call people out when they attempt to mislead by posting only the side view in a discussion about minimal damage to Ce399


Well, I'll give you this; you are indeed somewhat of an expert when it comes to misleading people by only posting one sided information.

But who exactly are you calling out?

Quote

I'm no expert on weapons and bullets but I have spoken to enough people who are, to be convinced that there is nothing unusual about the condition of that bullet after it was fired. Are you claiming that damage to the butt was caused in another way?

There's definitely nothing unusual about CTers leaving out inconvenient evidence

Oh please... as if LNs don't do the same on a daily basis....

Btw, since you didn't answer the question, I assume that you are not claiming that the damage to the butt was caused in any other way than by firing the bullet.

Great stuff, you are whining about minimal damage to the butt of bullet for which you can't even provide a shred of evidence that it is in any way related to the Kennedy murder or Parkland Hospital.... Wow!

Offline Michael T. Griffith

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On 5/1/78 Kenneth Klein received a letter from Dr. Eugene Mason (Brennan's doctor) stating that Brennan has a serious heart disease and recurrent peptic ulcer disease and is not physically able to come to Washington. He also said that Brennan could, if he was willing to do so, listen to a reading of his previous testimony at his home and declare whether or not the transcript was correct.

This makes no sense. If Brennan was medically incapable of confirming his previous statements, even if he didn't have to read them but they were read to him, then why did he say he would only testify if he were subpoenaed? Why did he say that he would get his doctor to say that testifying would be bad for his health, but nothing about his being incapable of testifying? How was Brennan able to speak with HSCA staffers and say all this stuff but supposedly unable to confirm the accuracy of his previous statements?


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Online Martin Weidmann

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It appears to be "against your religion" to believe a word that Howard Brennan says. But for anyone reading this that has a less biased view, here is Brennan's side of the story from his book "Eyewitness to History":


After my return to Texas I immediately started to work again and by this time the calls about the assassination had almost stopped. Life had finally gotten back to where it had been before November 22, 1963. Then suddenly and without warning I had a massive heart attack in August of 1970. I don't know for sure if the heart attack was the result of the many years of stress brought on due to my being a witness of the assassination, but I do know without a doubt that what I went through for almost four years had taken a lot out of me. My health before 1963 was excellent and now I was suffering from a series of stress related illnesses which had culminated with the heart attack.

For 22 days I was in Intensive Care and the doctors doubted I would survive. I had a desperate determination to live to see my grandchildren grow up. I was only 51 at the time and I kept thinking, "Howard, that's just too young to die."


.
.
.


In the years between Howard Brennan's initial debilitating heart attack in 1970 and 1978, he had a long recovery time and against his doctors' advice tried to work in a supervisory position. He continued to have more serious heart related problems and finally took his doctors' advice and retired for good by 1978.
.
.
.


In April of 1978 I got a call from Washington. I had heard that hearings were going to be held by a special Congressional Committee on Assassinations, chaired by Rep. Louis Stokes. A sub-committee on the assassination of John F. Kennedy was headed by Rep. Richardson Preyer. The call was for me to give testimony to this committee. Suddenly, all the agony I had experienced over several years returned. I believe the name of the man who first called me was Ken Klein. He said a group would be in Dallas in the next few days and wanted to interview me. I felt I had done as much for my country as I could and told him so. "I have whashed my hands of the whole thing." I said. "There is no way that I can give you an interview." The man said, "Mr. Brennan, this is most important. You have to help us." "I don't HAVE to do anything." I said. "But I'll tell you what I will do. If you do it my way, I'll cooperate. If any of your people want to see me, have them call the Police Chief "Cagy Evans in Kaufman. He will determine if I should see you. I won't see any more than one or two at a time. I live out in the country and it would be difficult for you to find. This is the only way I can see you." I knew that Chief Evans would shield me from anyone  who was not authentic. He knew my condition and would not let me be exposed to too much pressure. I did not want any newsman coming out for any kind of interview. I had been contacted by hundreds of the media, wanting this or that and I couldn't see one more newsman if my life depended on it. Chief Evans would prevent that. The Congressional Investigating Committee started sending investigarors to Dallas within a day or two and they came to my house. I was just as determined that I would not speak with them concerning the assassination of J.F.K. I had told it all, at least I thought I had and didn't think I could take one more inquiry.

A staff investigator by the name of Day came, seeking help. He was polite and I immediately liked him. I didn't feel I could help him, but we had a good rapport. When he was ready to leave, he encountered something  he never had to deal with in Washington, he was stuck in the mud! We tried as best we could to pull him out, but without success. Finally, we called a neighbor who had a large tractor who came and got him out.

I didn't know what the next move would be. They had come to my house at three or four day intervals for two weeks or so and then one day a Mr. Lawrence J. Delse, served me a congressional subpoena. It commanded that I appear in Washington to testify before the sub-committee within the next few days. I was stunned. It was April 28, 1978. For fifteen years this one event had controlled my life, driven me from one corner of the world to the other, played an instrumental part in my heart attack and the break down of my health, been a factor in my early retirement and now they wanted me to go back to Washington and start all over again.

"Mr. Delse," I said, "I can't accept this subpoena. I cannot go to Washington to testify." He looked at me as if I had just defiled the flag. "What do you mean?' he said. "I mean that my health will not permit me to leave here or be involved in this investigation in any manner!" I didn't mean to appear impertinent, but I finally felt I had had enough. "Mr. Brennan," he said, "This is not something you can make a decision about, you have to obey a congressional subpoena!" "I have had several heart attacks and my doctor will not permit it. If you don't believe me, you can call him. His name is Dr. Eugene Mason!" I gave him the phone number and sat back. Mr. Delse seemed not to know what to do. It was the first time apparently that anyone had refused to accept a subpoena. He said, "May I use your phone?" I replied, "of course." He put through a call to Washington talking with several people before finally reaching the Chairman, Congressman Stokes. After he hung up, he said that Mr. Stokes would be calling back after he conferred with Dr. Mason. We waited for several minutes and the phone rang. Mr. Delse answered and then said Mr. Stokes wanted to talk to me. I took the phone and Mr. Stokes told me he had talked to my doctor and was told that he should 'dump the whole thing.' "Will you cooperate?" Louis Stokes asked. "I'm sorry but I can't," I told him. "I'm not physically able to testify and I don't think your committee would want to force the issue with someone who had a medical background like mine." "Let me talk to Mr. Delse again," he said. Mr Delse took the phone and was told to give me anything I wanted. "I want something in writing," I said. "I want a note that shows I didn't ignore this subpoena." Together we sat down and formulated a note. He was not willing to excuse me from testifying, since it was a congressional matter He was authorized to give a note granting a two week extension. (22) He said I would be contacted again as to when and if I was to appear. We both knew that, even as we were talking, it would be the end of things. As Mr. Delse backed his car out of our driveway and headed toward Dallas, I stood and watched his car disappear over the horizon. His going signalled the end of it all; all the nightmares, all the intrusions, all the fears, all the tensions, all the sleepless nights, all the dreaded phone calls, all the insinuations, all the abuse by the press. For the first time in 14 years, five months and six days, I was finally free. The burden of being the only eyewitness to the assassination of President Kennedy was lifted. I didn't have anyghing else to dread.


Footnote 22: (Atere extensive phone calls by Mr. Lawrence Delse, to Mr. Ken Klein in Washington, his immediate superior and the Honorable Louis Stokes who headed the sub-committee on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy, Mr. Delse wrote in long-hand on a legal tablet the following message. Mr. Delse had come with a subpoena for Howard Brennan to appear four days later, but conversation with Dr. Eugene Mason of Dallas convinced them not to push the subpoena. Legally, they could not allow anyone to ignore a Congressional summon, so they compromised by granting an "extension" that would simply fade away into oblivion.

"This summons from the House of Representatives of the Congress of the United States of America for Howard L. Brennan to appear before them on May 2, 1978 is now extended for a period of two weeks. During this period members of the Select Committee on Assassinations will contact Howard L. Brennan at his home to interview him. This has been agreed up by Ken Klein and Mr. Brennan."
Dated: April 28, 1978 signed by Lawrence J. Delse, Staff Investigator

Amazing. Brennan did not want to recall the events of 11/22/63 for the HSCA, for fear of being exposed to too much pressure, and then goes on to recall the events of 11/22/63 for his book...

Offline Michael T. Griffith

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It appears to be "against your religion" to believe a word that Howard Brennan says.

No, but your religion appears to be to defend Brennan no matter what.

I've said several times that I actually believe much of Brennan's testimony and that Brennan was clearly coerced into identifying Oswald as the man he'd seen in the window. 

But for anyone reading this that has a less biased view, here is Brennan's side of the story from his book "Eyewitness to History": [SNIP]

LOL! I guess it didn't occur to you that Brennan's account utterly debunks his doctor's claim that he was incapable of affirming or denying the accuracy of his previous statements even if they were read to him?


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Online Charles Collins

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No, but your religion appears to be to defend Brennan no matter what.

I've said several times that I actually believe much of Brennan's testimony and that Brennan was clearly coerced into identifying Oswald as the man he'd seen in the window. 

LOL! I guess it didn't occur to you that Brennan's account utterly debunks his doctor's claim that he was incapable of affirming or denying the accuracy of his previous statements even if they were read to him?



I guess it didn't occur to you that Brennan's account utterly debunks his doctor's claim that he was incapable of affirming or denying the accuracy of his previous statements even if they were read to him?


That isn’t what the doctor said. Read it again.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 04:32:46 PM by Charles Collins »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Oh please... your whining is getting annoying

This establishes that Ce399 did not emerge 'pristine' 

Really? Not one bullet emerges "pristine" when it is fired!

Well, I'll give you this; you are indeed somewhat of an expert when it comes to misleading people by only posting one sided information.

But who exactly are you calling out?

Oh please... as if LNs don't do the same on a daily basis....

Btw, since you didn't answer the question, I assume that you are not claiming that the damage to the butt was caused in any other way than by firing the bullet.

Great stuff, you are whining about minimal damage to the butt of bullet for which you can't even provide a shred of evidence that it is in any way related to the Kennedy murder or Parkland Hospital.... Wow!

Oh please... your whining is getting annoying
You get annoyed with anyone who disagrees with you

Really? Not one bullet emerges "pristine" when it is fired!
CTers claim a 'pristine' Ce399 outcome

Well, I'll give you this; you are indeed somewhat of an expert when it comes to misleading people by only posting one sided information.


Typical LN real-deal presentation
re PristineGate


Typical OAKer presentation re PristineGate

But who exactly are you calling out?
Gary Craig, who posted images of damaged bullets and the side view of Ce399, and at the same time failed to post the damaged view of Ce399

Oh please... as if LNs don't do the same on a daily basis
So you admit CTers are disingenuous. Baby steps, contrarian... baby steps

Btw, since you didn't answer the question, I assume that you are not claiming that the damage to the butt was caused in any other way than by firing the bullet.
You seem to be claiming that the firing pin caused the damage to the butt-end of Ce399

Great stuff, you are whining about minimal damage to the butt of bullet for which you can't even provide a shred of evidence that it is in any way related to the Kennedy murder or Parkland Hospital.... Wow!
Wow! That sounds like a bailout to me: You wouldn't happen to be inching towards the exit by demanding proof of Ce399's involvement before establishing whether-or-not FMJ ammo could have performed as advertised, now would you?   
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 05:49:19 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Offline Michael T. Griffith

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That isn’t what the doctor said. Read it again.

You're correct. I misread the statement:

Quote
He also said that Brennan could, if he was willing to do so, listen to a reading of his previous testimony at his home and declare whether or not the transcript was correct.

But this doesn't solve the problems. Why didn't Brennan say anything about this to the HSCA staffers? How was able to have all the back and forth with the staffers but not take--what?--30 minutes to read his previous statements, or have them read to him, and affirm or deny their accuracy?

How can any objective person not see that Brennan was ducking and dodging because he knew that this time around he would not have the WC asking him softball questions but would have to explain the many holes in his story?