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Author Topic: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?  (Read 79653 times)

Online Dan O'meara

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This is an image of Vickie Adams outside the TSBD (red arrow) with friends near the motorcycle she overheard the message from. Hardly racing is she? It was only after hearing the message she ran inside (as she states in her testimony). Also, she wasn't just stopped by a police officer, she had a conversation with him.

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Offline Martin Weidmann

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This is an image of Vickie Adams outside the TSBD (red arrow) with friends near the motorcycle she overheard the message from. Hardly racing is she? It was only after hearing the message she ran inside (as she states in her testimony). Also, she wasn't just stopped by a police officer, she had a conversation with him.


Hardly racing is she? It was only after hearing the message she ran inside (as she states in her testimony).

Running or not, she must have entered the building at the loading dock prior to 12.36 / 12.37 when Officer Harkness sealed of the back entrance.

Also, she wasn't just stopped by a police officer, she had a conversation with him.

Semantics... whether it qualifies as being stopped or not, she could not go any further. The officer told her to go back to the building. So, what's your point?

« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 08:28:28 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Dan O'meara

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We're talking about the timeline for Vickie Adams leaving the fourth floor window until she re-enters the TSBD. The point is this - being stopped by an officer and returning to the TSBD does not take as long as being stopped, having a conversation then returning. The time spent in conversation with the officer must be taken into account which it is not at the moment. In her testimony she has the conversation with the officer, returns to the front of the TSBD where she meets colleagues and starts a conversation with them. While this is happening the message comes over the nearby motorcycle radio, about 12.36 - 12.37 and she rushes back inside just as the police are locking the building down.
The photo corroborates the following parts of her testimony - she returned to the front of the TSBD, was stood with colleagues, near a police motorcycle. There are no extra minutes unaccounted for in her testimony. That's the point.

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Offline Martin Weidmann

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We're talking about the timeline for Vickie Adams leaving the fourth floor window until she re-enters the TSBD. The point is this - being stopped by an officer and returning to the TSBD does not take as long as being stopped, having a conversation then returning. The time spent in conversation with the officer must be taken into account which it is not at the moment. In her testimony she has the conversation with the officer, returns to the front of the TSBD where she meets colleagues and starts a conversation with them. While this is happening the message comes over the nearby motorcycle radio, about 12.36 - 12.37 and she rushes back inside just as the police are locking the building down.
The photo corroborates the following parts of her testimony - she returned to the front of the TSBD, was stood with colleagues, near a police motorcycle. There are no extra minutes unaccounted for in her testimony. That's the point.

Agreed.. There are indeed no minutes unaccounted for. But we don't have to account for every minute or second. There are basically two options;

1. Just like Adams said in her statement to the FBI on 11/24/63, to Jim Leavelle on 02/07/64 and in her WC testimony, she and Styles left the 4th floor immediately after the last shot

or

2. as the WC, and now the LNs claim, the women waited for several minutes on the 4th floor before going down. That claim is based entirely on a remark Adams first made to Jim Leavelle, on 02/07/64, that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor.


We know from Adams' statements that she and Styles ran down the stairs at the North West corner of the building, left the building at the back running towards the railway yard, being sent back by a police officer, heading towards the front entrance of the building, hearing the radio message and entering the building again at the loading dock at the back. This all must have happened prior to 12.37 because at that moment Officer Harkness sealed off the back entrance to the building.

The first option, being that the girls ran down the stairs immediately after the last shot, enables them to be on the stairs in front of anybody coming from higher up and let's them arrive at the bottom of the stairs at 12.31, just before Truly and Baker get there to go up the stairs. As the girls went outside to the loading dock by using the door between the stairs and the elevator explains why they did not see Truly and Baker and were not seen by them.

This scenario leaves the girls around 6 minutes to make their way to the railway yard, being told by a police officer to return to the building, walking to the front of the building and down the street towards the main entrance, hearing the radio broadcast and re-enter the building at the loading dock at the back after walking down Houston street.

We know from their testimony that Shelley and Lovelady were at the front entrance of the building when the shots were fired. They went over to a little traffic island across the street and Lovelady saw Baker running towards the building. Both men then went down the street running parallel to the building towards the railway yard. They stayed there for a little while before returning to the TSBD and entering it at the loading dock at the back, according to their estimates, some 5 minutes after the shots.

This of course makes it physically impossible for Adams and Styles to have seen Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor of the TSBD when the came of the stairs at 12.31. It should be noted that the stairs are in the far North West corner of the building and anybody coming down those stairs would be looking at a freight elevator blocking the view for a large part of the shipping department. It may not have been physically possible for Adams to have seen Shelley and Lovelady at 12.31, but it is more than possible that in fact she saw both men when she re-entered the building at around 12.37, which is roughly the same time Shelley and Lovelady said they had entered the building as well.

So, now let's examine option 2. If the girls had stayed on the 4th floor for several minutes none of the information we know fits anymore. Had they gone down the stairs at around 12.35, as the LNs frequently suggest, they may have just been able to leave to building, but they would have had no possibility at all to go to the railway yard and subsequently the front entrance and hear the radio message and still re-enter the building prior to the lockdown by Officer Harknett at 12.37. So, option 2 simply doesn't add it.

Also, if option 2 was true, Victoria Adams must have lied about leaving immediately after the last shot to the FBI, to Jim Leavelle and the WC. Also, Dorothy Garner would have had to lie to Barefoot Sanders, who she told - according to the Stroud letter - that she saw the girls go down before Truly and the police man [Baker] came up. Now, why would these women lie about something like that?

In conclusion, the preponderance of evidence justifies the conclusion that Adams and Styles did in fact leave the 4th floor after the last shot, that they came down the stairs ahead of anybody coming from above and missed Truly and Baker by seconds. And that Adams did in fact see Shelley and Lovelady, but not when she came off the stairs but a few minutes later when they all had re-entered the building prior to 12.37.

It is inconceivable to me that the Warren Commission staff couldn't put two and two together and work out this timeline. I am more than convinced they did in fact figure it out, and thus understood that Victoria Adams was one of those witnesses that needed to be railroaded to prevent her from destroying their "Oswald on the stairs" narrative.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 09:56:11 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline John Mytton

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"Sandra Styles mentioned to me that this author [Barry Ernest] had contacted her some years ago. She even knew the name of the book (which I hadn't heard of myself). Sandra claimed she told Ernest what she was now telling me: that she and Victoria Adams did *not* go to the rear stairs anything close to as quickly as Victoria had claimed. I find it a little worrying that there is no mention of Sandra's counter-version in any of the promotional material linked here."
-- Sean Murphy; January 27, 2011
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.assassination.jfk/W7McW4aaYMc/rmbO883N__wJ

JohnM

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Offline Martin Weidmann

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"Sandra Styles mentioned to me that this author [Barry Ernest] had contacted her some years ago. She even knew the name of the book (which I hadn't heard of myself). Sandra claimed she told Ernest what she was now telling me: that she and Victoria Adams did *not* go to the rear stairs anything close to as quickly as Victoria had claimed. I find it a little worrying that there is no mention of Sandra's counter-version in any of the promotional material linked here."
-- Sean Murphy; January 27, 2011
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.assassination.jfk/W7McW4aaYMc/rmbO883N__wJ

JohnM

Over time Sandra Styles has said different things to different people. I recall she once said, on video I believe, that she could be the one who was mistaken and Victoria was correct after all. In the video below she confirms that she went down the stairs with Vickie Adams after the shots.

There isn't much point in cherry picking one piece of information and run with it, when you can't fit that same piece of information in a plausible way into a timeline of well known and established facts.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 10:54:22 PM by Martin Weidmann »


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Offline Martin Weidmann

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