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Author Topic: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building  (Read 31283 times)

Offline Ross Lidell

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2020, 04:12:46 AM »
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Frazier measured the similar style rifle and held it under his arm coming to the conclusion the package was not a rifle based on the length. Is scientific? No. But based on the length he concluded it was not.               

Frazier measured the similar style rifle and held it under his arm coming to the conclusion the package was not a rifle based on the length. Is scientific? No. But based on the length he concluded it was not.

"Based on the [estimated] length". Buell Frazier did not measure the length of Oswald's long package with a tape measure or ruler. His figure of 2 feet give or take a few inches was an E S T I M A T E.

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2020, 04:12:46 AM »


Offline Rick Plant

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2020, 04:14:27 AM »
Frazier measured the similar style rifle and held it under his arm coming to the conclusion the package was not a rifle based on the length. Is scientific? No. But based on the length he concluded it was not.

"Based on the [estimated] length". Buell Frazier did not measure the length of Oswald's long package with a tape measure or ruler. His figure of 2 feet give or take a few inches was an E S T I M A T E.

And a similar rifle will show it was too long in length. 

Offline Rick Plant

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2020, 04:20:56 AM »
Frazier measured the similar style rifle and held it under his arm coming to the conclusion the package was not a rifle based on the length. Is scientific? No. But based on the length he concluded it was not.

"Based on the [estimated] length". Buell Frazier did not measure the length of Oswald's long package with a tape measure or ruler. His figure of 2 feet give or take a few inches was an E S T I M A T E.

Frazier had an almost identical rifle as evidence proving it wasn't a rifle and you have a denial and an opinion with no rifle with no evidence.   

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2020, 04:20:56 AM »


Offline Ross Lidell

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2020, 04:32:51 AM »
Frazier had an almost identical rifle as evidence proving it wasn't a rifle and you have a denial and an opinion with no rifle with no evidence.

Owning an "almost identical rifle" means nothing in terms of Buell Frazier's estimate of the length of the package that Oswald carried to the TSBD.

Did Buell Frazier disassemble the rifle and place it in a paper bag?

Did he hold up the package and ask a dozen people to estimate it's length?

Did he carry the package cupped in his hand and under his armpit (the 3 ways it could have been positioned against his body): subsequently asking the same dozen people (50 feet behind him) if they could see the package above his shoulder?

If Buell Frazier did not do all those things: Mere ownership and personal observation of a Carcano rifle does not enhance the accuracy of his estimate that occurred years before.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 04:35:19 AM by Ross Lidell »

Offline Rick Plant

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2020, 04:54:43 AM »
Owning an "almost identical rifle" means nothing in terms of Buell Frazier's estimate of the length of the package that Oswald carried to the TSBD.

Means nothing? The nearly identical rifle was too long in length to carry so it means it wasn't a rifle. 

Did Buell Frazier disassemble the rifle and place it in a paper bag?

A disassembled rifle wouldn't have fit in a paper bag according to Frazier based on shape and size.       


Did he hold up the package and ask a dozen people to estimate it's length?

He held it up himself and see it didn't fit under his arm.   

Did he carry the package cupped in his hand and under his armpit (the 3 ways it could have been positioned against his body): subsequently asking the same dozen people (50 feet behind him) if they could see the package above his shoulder?

Frazier held the rifle the same way Osawld carried his package and it did not fit because the rifle was too long.   

If Buell Frazier did not do all those things: Mere ownership and personal observation of a Carcano rifle does not enhance the accuracy of his estimate that occurred years before.

Your making excuses. An identical rifle was used as a demonstration and Frazier did a reenactment of Oswald that showed the rifle to be too long. That is pretty good indicator of evidence which you do not have.       

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2020, 04:54:43 AM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2020, 07:11:21 AM »
Another pointless, essentially non-specific reply born out of a compulsion to attack for no good reason.

And there is your wishful thinking again..... speculative and worthless as always and only designed to not deal with what the witness actually said.

I dealt with it. The witness (Frazier) "estimated" the package to be 8 inches shorter than it would have to be if it contained the disassembled Carcano rifle. He described the way Oswald carried the package: Cupped in his hand and under the armpit. Due to human anatomy and physics, it was possible for the top of the package to protrude forward of the torso rather than be wedged in the armpit. The fact that Frazier did not consider this possibility is immaterial. It's possible for Frazier to be honest but honestly mistaken.

Only an unreasonable person considers his own conclusions to be reasonable.

Only? So you're saying it's impossible for a "reasonable" person to consider his own conclusions "reasonable". Explain that.

It's pretty pathetic to ignore what Frazier said and make up your own story instead, for which there is not a shred of evidence, and then call the conclusion reasonable.


It's not a "story". It's an explanation of how Oswald's long package (containing the disassembled Carcano) "could" have been carried and not be seen above LHO's shoulder--by Buell Frazier.

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And there is your wishful thinking again..... speculative and worthless as always and only designed to not deal with what the witness actually said.

I dealt with it. The witness (Frazier) "estimated" the package to be 8 inches shorter than it would have to be if it contained the disassembled Carcano rifle. He described the way Oswald carried the package: Cupped in his hand and under the armpit. Due to human anatomy and physics, it was possible for the top of the package to protrude forward of the torso rather than be wedged in the armpit. The fact that Frazier did not consider this possibility is immaterial. It's possible for Frazier to be honest but honestly mistaken.

The only way you dealt with it is by dismissing it, without a shred of evidence, as an "estimate' and a "honest mistake". A description like "cupped in his hand and under his armpit" isn't an estimate. It's a pretty solid indicator of how long the package could have been. You don't like that, so you go back to the speculative "the package could have protruded forward" nonsense for which you have no evidence whatsoever.

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Only an unreasonable person considers his own conclusions to be reasonable.

Only? So you're saying it's impossible for a "reasonable" person to consider his own conclusions "reasonable". Explain that.

The fact that you need this to have explained to you is telling. The answer to your question is; yes!

A reasonable person accepts the possibility that his opinion could be wrong. An unreasonable person feels that his opinion is not only reasonable but also the right one. You fit the latter category perfectly!

And now, I'm sure, you want to debate this point to demonstrate that your opinion is reasonable and the right one, right?

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It's pretty pathetic to ignore what Frazier said and make up your own story instead, for which there is not a shred of evidence, and then call the conclusion reasonable.

It's not a "story". It's an explanation of how Oswald's long package (containing the disassembled Carcano) "could" have been carried and not be seen above LHO's shoulder--by Buell Frazier.

Of course it is a story and a fictional one at that. You start by assuming that the rifle was in the package and then you look for a way to explain how Oswald could have carried the package without Frazier seeing it. It's a story that was made up by Dan Rather and LNs have been using it ever since, but all it really is, is an self-serving assumption.

Faced with Frazier's testimony there are two ways to go;

(1) you accept the evidence for what it is, conclude that the package was too small to contain a broken down rifle and you look for another explanation for how the rifle ended up at the TSBD or

(2) you follow your own biased agenda, dismiss what the witness said and make up your own story to fit your own pre-determined narrative....

« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 07:29:31 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2020, 07:59:48 AM »

Faced with Frazier's testimony there are two ways to go;

(1) you accept the evidence for what it is, conclude that the package was too small to contain a broken down rifle and you look for another explanation for how the rifle ended up at the TSBD or

(2) you follow your own biased agenda, dismiss what the witness said and make up your own story to fit your own pre-determined narrative....


Thankfully, Mr Lidell's hopeless sophisms are reduced to irrelevance by what Ms Mary Hall saw:

A long box being delivered to the Depository from a pawn shop/junkyard truck the morning of the assassination.

Can you imagine how intensely Mr Lidell must wish Mr Oswald had been seen bringing such a box into work that morning?  :D

Let's also note that the 'Honest Joe's' truck was again noticed minutes before the assassination by Mr A. J. Millican.

It's pretty obvious what happened:

The rifle was brought into the building in a long box; shortly before the assassination, the empty box was picked up. Leaving only the rifle in the building. 

Thumb1:

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2020, 07:59:48 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2020, 08:09:23 AM »
https://www.maryferrell.org/photos.html?set=NARA-BLANKET
Photo Set: NARA Evidence Photos: Blanket, Bag, Rods




Thank you, Mr Craig!  Thumb1:

The dates on the crime lab document tell us that these are most probably not the curtain rods that Mr Oswald brought to work that morning--------------but the replacement curtain rods that were quietly deposited in the Paine garage by Agent Howlett (or one of his men) and 'found' during Ms Paine's in situ WC testimony of 23 March.

The rods Mr Oswald brought to work were disappeared after Agent Howlett picked them up from Lt. Day at 7.50 am on 24 March.