Shells, rifle, SN... Who?

[Mitch Todd]

Iacoletti: Does CE139 have a thick brown-black leather bandolier type sling?

The sling is very dark brown or black on one side and brown on the other. Whether the sling would be considered to be "thick" or not would depend on how kinky you are. Every leather bandolier sling I've seen, the bandolier is a separate part that's significantly wider than the sling itself. The sling proper passes through holes on either end of the bandolier, or the assembled sling is held together via loops or buckles. The CE139 sling is two leather straps that are attached to a wider, oval leather pad with metal loops. So, yeah, I can see someone calling it a "bandolier type sling."


A bandolier type holster belt is one that has loops in which cartridges can be inserted.....  We've all seen the bandolier type belts that many police forces used when the revolvers were common.   And Bandolier type rifle slings have loops for carrying spare cartridges....   The wide pad on the sling on the carcano is a sentry type carrying strap. .....and it most certainly is NOT a thick heavy brownish black  sling.

Lemme go for the quick win here before I hit a couple more posts later.

I'm well aware of a pistol belt. But that's not what I'm talking about, and I suspect not what the Sayers/Weitzman is getting at.

I had an uncle who lived about a mile and a half away when I was a kid. He had a security business and was, for a time, a reserve police officer IIRC. Had the belt with cartridge loops and the whole nine yards: revolver, cuffs, nightstick, flashlight, pouch for a speed loader, the whole shebang. A belt can be pretty cool when you're 10, if it's decorated with the right accessories. It was thick, it was wide, it was surprisingly stiff for a belt. It was heavy. Heavy for a belt, just by itself. All that was because of all the cop bling it had to support. It seemed to do its job pretty well. But I wouldn't want to use it as a sling.

I'm sure you know, if maybe others don't, that one of the prime purposes of a sling is to help the shooter hold a rifle steady while aiming. This function generally involves the shooter wrapping the sling around his or her non-dominant forearm to take up slack and help keep the sling taut. Something as wide and stiff as one of those bandolier gunbelts is going to be too stiff, heavy and bulky to be very useful as a rifle sling. I've seen a number of what you could call leather "bandolier slings'" over the years though they don't seem to be too popular.  And everyone of these leather slings that I could call a "bandolier sling" looks something like this:



where the bandolier piece is separate from the rest of the sling, relatively short, and wider than the sling proper. Connected to the sling with metal loops or buckles or just a pair of holes that the sling slides through, like in the example I posted. The idea is that the semi-fixed bandolier piece can be moved to keep it out of the way when you need to wrap it around your arm to assume a proper shooting position. While the pad on the CE139 "sling" doesn't have loops, it does give the sling the kind of silhouette one would expect from a "bandolier type sling."

[Walt Cakebread]

Lemme go for the quick win here before I hit a couple more posts later.

I'm well aware of a pistol belt. But that's not what I'm talking about, and I suspect not what the Sayers/Weitzman is getting at.

I had an uncle who lived about a mile and a half away when I was a kid. He had a security business and was, for a time, a reserve police officer IIRC. Had the belt with cartridge loops and the whole nine yards: revolver, cuffs, nightstick, flashlight, pouch for a speed loader, the whole shebang. A belt can be pretty cool when you're 10, if it's decorated with the right accessories. It was thick, it was wide, it was surprisingly stiff for a belt. It was heavy. Heavy for a belt, just by itself. All that was because of all the cop bling it had to support. It seemed to do its job pretty well. But I wouldn't want to use it as a sling.

I'm sure you know, if maybe others don't, that one of the prime purposes of a sling is to help the shooter hold a rifle steady while aiming. This function generally involves the shooter wrapping the sling around his or her non-dominant forearm to take up slack and help keep the sling taut. Something as wide and stiff as one of those bandolier gunbelts is going to be too stiff, heavy and bulky to be very useful as a rifle sling. I've seen a number of what you could call leather "bandolier slings'" over the years though they don't seem to be too popular.  And everyone of these leather slings that I could call a "bandolier sling" looks something like this:



where the bandolier piece is separate from the rest of the sling, relatively short, and wider than the sling proper. Connected to the sling with metal loops or buckles or just a pair of holes that the sling slides through, like in the example I posted. The idea is that the semi-fixed bandolier piece can be moved to keep it out of the way when you need to wrap it around your arm to assume a proper shooting position. While the pad on the CE139 "sling" doesn't have loops, it does give the sling the kind of silhouette one would expect from a "bandolier type sling."

It seemed to do its job pretty well. But I wouldn't want to use it as a sling.

I was NOT saying that a pistol belt was the sling on the mauser....  I used the pistol belt to make the point that the loops for spare cartridges are what constitute a Bandolier type sling.

[Walt Cakebread]

Lemme go for the quick win here before I hit a couple more posts later.

I'm well aware of a pistol belt. But that's not what I'm talking about, and I suspect not what the Sayers/Weitzman is getting at.

I had an uncle who lived about a mile and a half away when I was a kid. He had a security business and was, for a time, a reserve police officer IIRC. Had the belt with cartridge loops and the whole nine yards: revolver, cuffs, nightstick, flashlight, pouch for a speed loader, the whole shebang. A belt can be pretty cool when you're 10, if it's decorated with the right accessories. It was thick, it was wide, it was surprisingly stiff for a belt. It was heavy. Heavy for a belt, just by itself. All that was because of all the cop bling it had to support. It seemed to do its job pretty well. But I wouldn't want to use it as a sling.

I'm sure you know, if maybe others don't, that one of the prime purposes of a sling is to help the shooter hold a rifle steady while aiming. This function generally involves the shooter wrapping the sling around his or her non-dominant forearm to take up slack and help keep the sling taut. Something as wide and stiff as one of those bandolier gunbelts is going to be too stiff, heavy and bulky to be very useful as a rifle sling. I've seen a number of what you could call leather "bandolier slings'" over the years though they don't seem to be too popular.  And everyone of these leather slings that I could call a "bandolier sling" looks something like this:



where the bandolier piece is separate from the rest of the sling, relatively short, and wider than the sling proper. Connected to the sling with metal loops or buckles or just a pair of holes that the sling slides through, like in the example I posted. The idea is that the semi-fixed bandolier piece can be moved to keep it out of the way when you need to wrap it around your arm to assume a proper shooting position. While the pad on the CE139 "sling" doesn't have loops, it does give the sling the kind of silhouette one would expect from a "bandolier type sling."

where the bandolier piece is separate from the rest of the sling,   

It appears to be riveted to the sling....



This is what Weitzman was describing..... A thick leather brownish black  BANDOLIER type sling.....

[John Iacoletti]

Lemme go for the quick win here before I hit a couple more posts later.

Hope springs eternal.

I'm well aware of a pistol belt. But that's not what I'm talking about, and I suspect not what the Sayers/Weitzman is getting at.

Of course not. You’re determined to jam that square peg into a round hole.

[Walt Cakebread]

Lemme go for the quick win here before I hit a couple more posts later.

I'm well aware of a pistol belt. But that's not what I'm talking about, and I suspect not what the Sayers/Weitzman is getting at.

I had an uncle who lived about a mile and a half away when I was a kid. He had a security business and was, for a time, a reserve police officer IIRC. Had the belt with cartridge loops and the whole nine yards: revolver, cuffs, nightstick, flashlight, pouch for a speed loader, the whole shebang. A belt can be pretty cool when you're 10, if it's decorated with the right accessories. It was thick, it was wide, it was surprisingly stiff for a belt. It was heavy. Heavy for a belt, just by itself. All that was because of all the cop bling it had to support. It seemed to do its job pretty well. But I wouldn't want to use it as a sling.

I'm sure you know, if maybe others don't, that one of the prime purposes of a sling is to help the shooter hold a rifle steady while aiming. This function generally involves the shooter wrapping the sling around his or her non-dominant forearm to take up slack and help keep the sling taut. Something as wide and stiff as one of those bandolier gunbelts is going to be too stiff, heavy and bulky to be very useful as a rifle sling. I've seen a number of what you could call leather "bandolier slings'" over the years though they don't seem to be too popular.  And everyone of these leather slings that I could call a "bandolier sling" looks something like this:



where the bandolier piece is separate from the rest of the sling, relatively short, and wider than the sling proper. Connected to the sling with metal loops or buckles or just a pair of holes that the sling slides through, like in the example I posted. The idea is that the semi-fixed bandolier piece can be moved to keep it out of the way when you need to wrap it around your arm to assume a proper shooting position. While the pad on the CE139 "sling" doesn't have loops, it does give the sling the kind of silhouette one would expect from a "bandolier type sling."

I'm well aware of a pistol belt. But that's not what I'm talking about, and I suspect not what the Sayers/Weitzman is getting at.

So you've known all along what a bandoliertype sling is.... Thank you for exposing your dishonesty.   

You also know that Weitzman was describing a mauser in Sayer's report.   

[Walt Cakebread]

No.  It's not.  Whether you think he was able to or not, that's what he described.  If you want to claim that he described stuff he didn't actually see then it's your job to prove that with something other than conjecture.

You might know that, but you don't know that Weitzman and Boone knew that.  And that that's the reason they said "7.65".

"Mr. Weitzman described the rifle which was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser . . ."

"After he had observed this rifle to the extent described above . . ."

I came out of it just fine, thank you.  Ego isn't evidence.  He observed and described a 5 shot clip.  Full stop.  I don't know how this happened and neither do you.

I'm not changing the subject.  If you're so sure he saw and described CE139, then CE139 should match Weitzman's description.  Without a bunch of contrived handwaving.

A picture is worth a thousand words.  Is this what you're talking about?



But didn't Weitzman say "the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn"?

But there's a difference between "rough and tumble" and "used or damaged to a considerable extent".



Apparent Japanese manufacture?  It just says "JAPAN".  It says "HOLLYWOOD CALIFORNIA" in bigger letters.

You don't know how much it matters in this case, because you don't know what Weitzman looked at.

They're not visible in these particular photo angles.  And if Weitzman only examined these particular photos, you might have a point.  At least about the engravings, if not the stock and the bolt and the strap.

You don't.  But if he is describing CE139, why don't several of the details (like the sling) match his description?

Well of course you do.  Because you want it to be this rifle that Weitzman was describing.

A picture is worth a thousand words. 



[mg]http://iacoletti.org/jfk/rifle-stock.png[/img]


Please describe the finish on the stock of this carcano......   Does it appear to have been painted black?

[Walt Cakebread]

Hope springs eternal.

Of course not. You’re determined to jam that square peg into a round hole.

We've discussed this enough to draw a conclusion......  That conclusion is:   Seymour Weitzman examined a 7.65 mauser for FBI agent A1lbert Sayers.   WHERE did this mauser come from??   

[Jack Trojan]

We've discussed this enough to draw a conclusion......  That conclusion is:   Seymour Weitzman examined a 7.65 mauser for FBI agent A1lbert Sayers.   WHERE did this mauser come from??   

The 6th floor of the TSBD.