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Author Topic: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?  (Read 42248 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #128 on: March 29, 2020, 10:58:20 PM »
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Now, on the to the five-round vs six round thing. Is it a Mauser because Weitzman saw five rounds in the magazine, or did Weitzman first decide that the rifle was a Mauser, therefore it had a five-round capacity? The first possibility leads to something of a problem: if the magazine held five rounds, and Fritz ejected on from the chamber, then that rifle couldn't have fired a shot. And where did anyone say Weitzman or anyone else emptied the magazine? Or, in an alternative silliness, Did Weitzman just happen to have a fistful of ammunition of the proper caliber, and decided to top the rifle off to determine it's capacity? Neither of those "five rounds first" scenarios are satisfying. Nor is there any evidence to support them: who claimed that anyone did anything to check the magazine capacity on the rifle? The only explanation still standing is the Mauser-first one: Once Weitzman decided the rifle was a Mauser, then it held five rounds because Mausers hold five rounds. And that means the number of rounds described simply isn't probative.

This seems really contrived to me. He described details that he didn’t actually see but invented them to match his assumption that he saw a Mauser? Why would anyone do that? He’s supposed to be describing what he saw.

And who says that Weitzman’s Mauser fired a shot?

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Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #128 on: March 29, 2020, 10:58:20 PM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #129 on: March 29, 2020, 11:56:35 PM »
This seems really contrived to me. He described details that he didn’t actually see but invented them to match his assumption that he saw a Mauser? Why would anyone do that? He’s supposed to be describing what he saw.
It's simple syllogistic logic. If you know that Mausers hold 5 rounds, and you think that a rifle you see is a Mauser, then you are liable to that the "Mauser" hold five rounds.

And who says that Weitzman’s Mauser fired a shot?
Who said that Weitzman or Boone or anyone else found a second rifle, separate from the Carcano seen in the Alyea film?

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #130 on: March 30, 2020, 12:02:20 AM »

"you'll notice the tool marks where some took a grinder to the top of the receivers on the top two rifles (it's easier to see on the second photo).  That's because the Argentine government required that their military rifles have the national crest removed from their surplus firearms before they could sold for export."

Yes, you're correct. Argentina started grinding their national crest off exported rifles in the 1930's.

https://gunsinthenews.com/1891-argentine-mauser-history/

"Collectors in the U.S., though, often find the national crest ground off of Argentine 1891 Mausers. This was done in the aftermath of the Chaco War of 1935, which pitted Bolivia and Paraguay against one another in a vicious albeit brief struggle for control of South America’s resource-rich Chaco Boreal. Argentina provided Paraguay with a large number of Model 1891 Mausers during the conflict in a move that jeopardized its relationship with Bolivia. The presence of unground national crests made it impossible to deny Argentina’s direct support for Paraguay, so after the war Argentina instituted a law requiring the removal of the national crest from any gun leaving the country. Although the government in Buenos Aires later dropped this requirement, by then most of the Argentine 1891 Mausers had been ground, and this accounts for why it is rare to find one with the crest intact."

The "7.65 Mauser" was added decades after the rifles' manufacture. The Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed in reaction to RFK's assassination.  One of it's provisions was that imported firearms were required to have the caliber engraved on the weapon after 1968.

That doesn't mean 7.65 wasn't added to any exported rifles before 1968. Seems like it would be a natural to add it to the place where the national crest was was ground off the rifles.

 Also, since the majority of the Argentine '91 7.65 rifles imported into the US had the national crest ground off, and Boone and Weitzman were, according to you and most WC apologists, making a guess after a quick glance, could you show me the area on the TSBD Carcano where the crest was ground off that would have given them that impression?



Who said anything about a crest, ground off or not, on the rifle found in the TSBD? Do you even know what you're arguing, or why you're arguing it?

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Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #130 on: March 30, 2020, 12:02:20 AM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #131 on: March 30, 2020, 12:32:26 AM »
Maybe it actually happened.  You can't expect that the small amount of remaining Alyea footage captured everything that happened.
What evidence is there for a second rifle being discovered?

Offline Jack Trojan

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Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #132 on: March 30, 2020, 01:32:47 AM »
What evidence is there for a second rifle being discovered?

Doesn't Weitzman's signed affidavit that he examined a Mauser on the 22nd give you the slightest bit of pause? Otherwise, why would you think he knew Mausers were 7.65 caliber and a Mauser held 5 rounds? He admitted that he was no expert. Do you really think that Weitzman was describing a rifle from another day or the MC?

If Weitzman was telling the truth (before he thought better of it) then there were 2 rifles found on the 22nd. In which case, the Mauser was not captured on film because Fritz pulled a switcheroo before Alyea started filming. Fritz seemed to be in control of what got documented and how to stage the crime scene before any film was shot.  For example, Fritz tampered with the crime scene by picking up the 3 hulls with his bare hands and put them in his pocket, then later staged an in situ photograph of the hulls in a more scattered (believable) arrangement by tossing them onto the floor so a rookie cop could take a photo of them. If he could do that, then what's the big deal about pulling a switcheroo with the rifle, if he had to because a DPD bumpkin stumbled onto the Mauser by mistake?

Otherwise, you have to believe the testimony of the conspirators that the 1st rifle found was the MC. Why you and Walt believe Fritz and Day is beyond me. Screw the film. Fritz staged that too. Alyea might have been oblivious to it all, but I doubt he would have been allowed to be there if Fritz didn't  have control over the narrative his film portrayed.

But since you are a LNer, you think the MC is THE 1 and only rifle, which Oswald used to kill the POTUS with a magic bullet and a wonky scope from the 6th floor of the TSBD. And definitely NOT with a Mauser! Walt thinks the whole Mauser story is insane BS but his crazy conspiracy theory is AOK.  Thumb1:
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 01:35:40 AM by Jack Trojan »

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Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #132 on: March 30, 2020, 01:32:47 AM »


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #133 on: March 30, 2020, 02:22:15 AM »
Who said anything about a crest, ground off or not, on the rifle found in the TSBD? Do you even know what you're arguing, or why you're arguing it?

I'm not arguing anything with you. Just pointing out some facts and asking questions.

The majority of model '91 Argentine 7.65 Mausers imported into the US had the Argentine national crest ground off.

https://gunsinthenews.com/1891-argentine-mauser-history/

"Collectors in the U.S., though, often find the national crest ground off of Argentine 1891 Mausers. This was done in the aftermath of the Chaco War of 1935, which pitted Bolivia and Paraguay against one another in a vicious albeit brief struggle for control of South America’s resource-rich Chaco Boreal. Argentina provided Paraguay with a large number of Model 1891 Mausers during the conflict in a move that jeopardized its relationship with Bolivia. The presence of unground national crests made it impossible to deny Argentina’s direct support for Paraguay, so after the war Argentina instituted a law requiring the removal of the national crest from any gun leaving the country. Although the government in Buenos Aires later dropped this requirement, by then most of the Argentine 1891 Mausers had been ground, and this accounts for why it is rare to find one with the crest intact."

Pertinent to the conversation because of the alleged Boone and Weitzman misidentification of a rifle in the TSBD. Apparently a '91 Argentine Mauser because it's the Mauser that most resembles the TSBD Carcano. My question: Is there something on the TSBD Carcano  that would have given them the impression it had a ground off Argentine national crest?


'91 Argentine Mauser with crest ground off and caliber stamped on.


« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 02:30:45 AM by Gary Craig »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #134 on: March 30, 2020, 02:41:33 AM »
It's simple syllogistic logic. If you know that Mausers hold 5 rounds, and you think that a rifle you see is a Mauser, then you are liable to that the "Mauser" hold five rounds.
Who said that Weitzman or Boone or anyone else found a second rifle, separate from the Carcano seen in the Alyea film?


It's simple syllogistic logic. If you know that Mausers hold 5 rounds, and you think that a rifle you see is a Mauser, then you are liable to that the "Mauser" hold five rounds.

That's right....Weitzman apparently was familiar with the Argentine Mauser, so he knew that it held five rounds.....This is one of the things that leads me to believe that Weitzman actually had his hands on a 7.65 Mauser.  (And that most definitely was NOT on the sixth floor that afternoon. )

Who said that Weitzman or Boone or anyone else found a second rifle, separate from the Carcano seen in the Alyea film?

Roger Craig made that claim..... Not that I believe that...I'm just tellin you that Roger Craig said that. 

Please, Let's not let this degenerate into petty arguments about the features of Argentine Mausers....   Let's try to come up a reasonable explanation for the FBI report of A1bert Sawyer....and Weitzman's very specific description of a 7.65 mauser.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 02:49:00 AM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #134 on: March 30, 2020, 02:41:33 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #135 on: March 30, 2020, 04:05:33 AM »
What evidence is there for a second rifle being discovered?

Three sheriff’s deputies saying they saw a Mauser.