Shells, rifle, SN... Who?

[Joffrey van de Wiel]

Both of the rifles illustrated are Mannlicher Carcano..... So they should look alike........ 

It's interesting that someone has photographically mounted a scope on the carcano in the lower photo....  It's hilarious !!   They've "mounted" the scope on the right hand side, which would render the rifle useless.....

The top one is supposed to be a Mauser. Here's another picture:



The scope on the Carcano was wobbly and shins had to be installed to make it stable enough for firing tests. And it turned out to be defective.

Could Weitzmann have described the Mannlicher-Carcano but misnamed it as a Mauser?

[Walt Cakebread]

The top one is supposed to be a Mauser. Here's another picture:



The scope on the Carcano was wobbly and shins had to be installed to make it stable enough for firing tests. And it turned out to be defective.

Could Weitzmann have described the Mannlicher-Carcano but misnamed it as a Mauser?

Both photos that you originally posted are Mannlicher Carcanos ..... However On closer inspection I believe that the scope being mounted on the righ hand side is an optical illusion which creates an optical confusion. ....

Could Weitzmann have described the Mannlicher-Carcano but misnamed it as a Mauser?

No, absolutely not!  Weitzman definitely had a 7.65 Mauser in his hands when he described the rifle....

[Joffrey van de Wiel]

Both photos that you originally posted are Mannlicher Carcanos ..... However On closer inspection I believe that the scope being mounted on the righ hand side is an optical illusion which creates an optical confusion. ....

Could Weitzmann have described the Mannlicher-Carcano but misnamed it as a Mauser?

No, absolutely not!  Weitzman definitely had a 7.65 Mauser in his hands when he described the rifle....

I don't think it is likely that a Mauser was introduced into evidence as you state. Note that Weitzman does not mention specific characteristics like the serial number, the clip, the home-made sling etc. In his signed Affidavit of November 23rd he states that the rifle was a

- 7.65 (wrong)
- Mauser (wrong)
- bolt-action (correct)
- equipped with a 4/18 scope (correct)
- with a thick leather brownish black sling (correct.)

Nowhere in the record is there any reference to TWO rifles being discovered, it was always just the one. It does not make sense for any conspirators to create a paper trail leading from the C2766 Mannlicher-Carcano via the Hidell alias to Oswald's PO box and back to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, and then to leave the wrong rifle at the crime scene!

On the one hand the conspirators devised a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel, but also so sloppy to leave the wrong evidence behind? I don't buy that.

[Joffrey van de Wiel]

But then:

[Walt Cakebread]

I don't think it is likely that a Mauser was introduced into evidence as you state. Note that Weitzman does not mention specific characteristics like the serial number, the clip, the home-made sling etc. In his signed Affidavit of November 23rd he states that the rifle was a

- 7.65 (wrong)
- Mauser (wrong)
- bolt-action (correct)
- equipped with a 4/18 scope (correct)
- with a thick leather brownish black sling (correct.)

Nowhere in the record is there any reference to TWO rifles being discovered, it was always just the one. It does not make sense for any conspirators to create a paper trail leading from the C2766 Mannlicher-Carcano via the Hidell alias to Oswald's PO box and back to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, and then to leave the wrong rifle at the crime scene!

On the one hand the conspirators devised a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel, but also so sloppy to leave the wrong evidence behind? I don't buy that.

- 7.65 (wrong)  Correct.... Weitzman knew what he was looking at....and he said it was a 7.65 Mauser
- bolt-action (correct)
- equipped with a 4/18 scope (correct)
- with a thick leather brownish black sling (correct.)    Wrong.... The Mannlicher carcano DID NOT have a thick brownish black leather sling.  The Carcano had a light duty BLACK carrying strap.....The strap was unfinished tan leather on the backside and polished black leather on the finished side....and it as NOT a bandolier type sling, it was a carrying strap that had a wide leather patch incorporated into the assembly .  These patches are designed for sentry duty, and they are to prevent the narrow strap from diggin into a sentry's shoulder as he stands his post.

Nobody has ever mentioned that General Walker served in Italy during WWII....The carcano looks very much like a war trophy  ( except for the scope)
Mussolini had an elite group as his body guards...( The Guardie del Duce)  Those guards were equipped with special black uniforms, which included high black boots and Mannlicher carcanos that were painted black and special black straps with the wide patch. 

[Walt Cakebread]

I don't think it is likely that a Mauser was introduced into evidence as you state. Note that Weitzman does not mention specific characteristics like the serial number, the clip, the home-made sling etc. In his signed Affidavit of November 23rd he states that the rifle was a

- 7.65 (wrong)
- Mauser (wrong)
- bolt-action (correct)
- equipped with a 4/18 scope (correct)
- with a thick leather brownish black sling (correct.)

Nowhere in the record is there any reference to TWO rifles being discovered, it was always just the one. It does not make sense for any conspirators to create a paper trail leading from the C2766 Mannlicher-Carcano via the Hidell alias to Oswald's PO box and back to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, and then to leave the wrong rifle at the crime scene!

On the one hand the conspirators devised a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel, but also so sloppy to leave the wrong evidence behind? I don't buy that.

I don't think it is likely that a Mauser was introduced into evidence as you state

I didn't state that.....  I said that it appears as if "someone" ( Fritz & co.  ?) was attempting to  introduce a 7.65 mauser into the evidence stream.....  At the time ( Friday afternoon) the conspirators were in a bit of a panic....( Lee Oswald was still alive and protesting his arrest) They may have been preparing a fall back position by claiming they had found a mauser in the TSBD that they suspected belonged to one of Oswald's confederates...  That's pure speculation, but the fact remains that Fritz gave Weitzman a 7.65 Mauser and Weitzman described that mauser for FBI agent A1bert Sawyer.    FWIW.... Sawyer was from the Houston office of the FBI, and he wasn't even in the TSBD when the Carcano was found......so his report cannot be from the time that Weitzman saw Detective Day pick the rifle up from the floor.

Why do I feel that I'm required to argue both sides of this coin?......  I'm 100% certain that the rifle that Weitzman and Boone discovered was a Mannlicher Carcano,, while at the same time I'm 100% certain that Weitzman had a 7.65 mauser in his hands and described that mauser for FBI agent A1bert Sawyer .....

I do know that Weitzman testified that he was ordered to report to the police station later that Friday afternoon.....long after he had departed the TSBD at about 2:00pm.   The question is:....  Why was Weitzman ordered to report to the police station?? 

[John Iacoletti]

Whether or not a Mauser was found in the TSBD is irrelevant, as the bullet found at Parkland after falling out of the Governor's thigh, as well as the two large bullet fragments recovered from the limousine were determined to have been fired through the barrel of the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.

You mean the two fragments that were allegedly found and removed by a secret service deputy and a navy corpsman before the FBI arrived to process the limo, and for which there is no documented chain of custody? The fragments that were so mutilated that Robert Frazier matched then up by lining up marks “in his mind” because they didn’t line up under the microscope? Those fragments? Is there any evidence that those fragments ever went through Kennedy or Connally?

No bullets or cartridges of 7.65 mm were ever recovered at the assassination scenes: the TSBD, Dealey Plaza etc.

Supposedly the ARRB found an empty evidence envelope that was dated 2 December 1963 and indicating that it was a 7.65 mm shell found in Dealey Plaza.

Lead fragments recovered from the victims' bodies and the limousine were analyzed using Neutron Activation Analyses and it turned out that they all originated from the recovered bullet and fragments.

That is way overstated.  All NAA tells you is what concentrations of antimony were in the various fragments.