Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
Dan DAlimonte and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: Who returned LHOs library books on Oct 3rd 1963?  (Read 1027 times)

Offline Jerry Freeman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2123
Re: Who returned LHOs library books on Oct 3rd 1963?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2020, 11:35:42 PM »
However, on page 742 of “Reclaiming History,” Vincent Bugliosi says that: “All three Bond novels turned up in his Dallas rooming house after the assassination.” There is no source note for this claim. I question Bugliosi on this one...
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337905/m1/5/?q=James%20Bond
"Live and Let Die" and "The Spy Who Loved Me" were not on that New Orleans library book list.

Offline Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
Re: Who returned LHOs library books on Oct 3rd 1963?
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2020, 12:02:49 AM »
Charles: Some "covers" of James Bond novels and other books - including ones on Marxism - were retrieved from Oswald's possessions by the DPD. I don't know if just the covers were found (which is odd) and not the books too or they just photographed the covers only. It appears this may be what Bugliosi is referring to.

Link: https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337905/?q=James%20Bond

Thanks Steve, you might be right. However Jerry makes it clear that the books found in the rooming house were not the same ones that LHO checked out in New Orleans. And Bugliosi’s claim appears to suggest that they were. Uncharacteristically sloppy work by Bugliosi...

Offline Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
Re: Who returned LHOs library books on Oct 3rd 1963?
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2020, 12:03:31 AM »
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337905/m1/5/?q=James%20Bond
"Live and Let Die" and "The Spy Who Loved Me" were not on that New Orleans library book list.

Thanks Jerry.

Offline John Tonkovich

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Who returned LHOs library books on Oct 3rd 1963?
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2020, 05:28:39 AM »

This has to be proof LHO was not on his own in Mexico.

The more likely explanation is that the books were returned before LHO left New Orleans and simply were not processed by the library until 10/3.

However, on page 742 of “Reclaiming History,” Vincent Bugliosi says that: “All three Bond novels turned up in his Dallas rooming house after the assassination.” There is no source note for this claim. I question Bugliosi on this one...

Why does there need to be an "explanation", and what makes your unsupported statement " more likely" ?

The library books were turned in on October 3rd. Seems to be accepted by the Warren Commission.

Offline John Tonkovich

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Who returned LHOs library books on Oct 3rd 1963?
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2020, 05:49:01 AM »
]
Thanks Steve, you might be right. However Jerry makes it clear that the books found in the rooming house were not the same ones that LHO checked out in New Orleans. And Bugliosi’s claim appears to suggest that they were. Uncharacteristically sloppy work by Bugliosi...

Very characteristic.

Offline Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
Re: Who returned LHOs library books on Oct 3rd 1963?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2020, 01:54:22 PM »
Why does there need to be an "explanation", and what makes your unsupported statement " more likely" ?

The library books were turned in on October 3rd. Seems to be accepted by the Warren Commission.

Why does there need to be an "explanation", and what makes your unsupported statement " more likely" ?

The claim that I responded to WAS an (unlikely) explanation. Here it is again:

Someone then returned them to the New Orleans library on Oct 3rd (at a time when LHO was on his way to Dallas from Mexico). This has to be proof LHO was not on his own in Mexico. Presumably, whoever he was with, he gave that person his library books to return to New Orleans once LHO realized he would not be getting in to Cuba.

Margaret’s explanation states that “someone returned them...on Oct 3rd.” The SS report (CE 2650) only states that “card shows return date [10/3/63].” It most definitely does not state that “someone returned them on 10/3/63.”

Margaret’s explanation states that “This HAS to be proof LHO was not on his own in Mexico.” My contention is that it doesn’t HAVE  to be proof of that. She is jumping to an ad hoc conclusion. She doesn’t allow for ANY other possible explanations.

There are several possible scenarios in which the library could have processed the books a few days after they were actually returned. Here is one: The books were placed in an after-hours return (because LHO left town in a hurry). Consequently, the books were simply not processed until 10/3/63 because they were separate from others (that were returned to the desk during operating hours) and were neglected or forgotten about until 10/3/63. This type of scenario happens quite often in libraries and offices everywhere. Therefore this scenario is much more likely than Margaret’s contention that “someone” was helping LHO. Why aren’t you asking for corroborating evidence of a “helper”?


Offline John Tonkovich

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Who returned LHOs library books on Oct 3rd 1963?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2020, 03:01:54 PM »
You raise an interesting point.

Oswald was in Dallas at the TEC ( Texas Employment Commission?) on the 3rd, in Dallas.  And, en route to Dallas, from Nuevo Laredo, on the 2nd.
For the record, the 2nd and 3rd were weekdays, not weekends, so there is no possible "after hours/holidaySunday closure" explanation.

I think the only legitimate conclusion is that someone else returned the library books. Oswald taking the books to Mexico is conjecture, as is the traveling companion suggestion. Possible, but not proven.

Thanks. More info appreciated.

Addendum: New Orleans is 500 miles East/Southeast of Dallas.
And that is an odd mixture of reading material.

For Mr. Collins.
Please above.
Note the word "conjecture".
Also note me, premptively,  "cutting off at the pass" the "aterhours/holidayweekend" excuse.

Oswald, according to Warren Commission report, leaves New Orleans 5 to 6 days before October 3rd. And is in Mexico City on the 1st, and in Dallas, 500 miles away from N.O., on the 2nd.

The OP raised an interesting point.  What does it mean?

Offline Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
Re: Who returned LHOs library books on Oct 3rd 1963?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2020, 07:39:39 PM »
For Mr. Collins.
Please above.
Note the word "conjecture".
Also note me, premptively,  "cutting off at the pass" the "aterhours/holidayweekend" excuse.

Oswald, according to Warren Commission report, leaves New Orleans 5 to 6 days before October 3rd. And is in Mexico City on the 1st, and in Dallas, 500 miles away from N.O., on the 2nd.

The OP raised an interesting point.  What does it mean?


For the record, the 2nd and 3rd were weekdays, not weekends, so there is no possible "after hours/holidaySunday closure" explanation.

LHO cashed his unemployment check on 9/25/63 (sometime after 8: o’clock am) at a Winn-Dixie store near his apartment. He could have dropped the books at the library that morning before they opened. So it is certainly is possible.

If you disagree, because of the number of days that the books would have been neglected or forgotten about between the 25th and the 10/3, then here is another scenario for you:

LHO could have simply taken the books to the lost and found (or security office) at the bus station in New Orleans and told them that someone else must have left them there. It could have taken the bus station personnel until 10/3/63 to get the books back to the library. There are other possible similar scenarios that could have taken place.

 Yes, it is only conjecture. And we will probably never know for sure exactly what transpired. However, my point is that the evidence does NOT have to be “proof” that LHO had someone helping him with his trip to Mexico City.

Offline John Tonkovich

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Who returned LHOs library books on Oct 3rd 1963?
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2020, 11:59:00 PM »

For the record, the 2nd and 3rd were weekdays, not weekends, so there is no possible "after hours/holidaySunday closure" explanation.

LHO cashed his unemployment check on 9/25/63 (sometime after 8: o’clock am) at a Winn-Dixie store near his apartment. He could have dropped the books at the library that morning before they opened. So it is certainly is possible.

If you disagree, because of the number of days that the books would have been neglected or forgotten about between the 25th and the 10/3, then here is another scenario for you:

LHO could have simply taken the books to the lost and found (or security office) at the bus station in New Orleans and told them that someone else must have left them there. It could have taken the bus station personnel until 10/3/63 to get the books back to the library. There are other possible similar scenarios that could have taken place.

 Yes, it is only conjecture. And we will probably never know for sure exactly what transpired. However, my point is that the evidence does NOT have to be “proof” that LHO had someone helping him with his trip to Mexico City.

Libraries keep close track of when books are returned, because...they charge fines for books returned late.

The evidence provided shows that someone other than LHO returned the books.

Nothing else.

The OP raised an interesting point.

Offline Margaret Kelly

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
Re: Who returned LHOs library books on Oct 3rd 1963?
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2020, 02:24:01 AM »
LHO could have simply taken the books to the lost and found (or security office) at the bus station in New Orleans and told them that someone else must have left them there. It could have taken the bus station personnel until 10/3/63 to get the books back to the library. There are other possible similar scenarios that could have taken place.

Possible. But Oswald knew well in advance that he was leaving for Mexico. It looks to me like Oswald was trying to steal these books and carry them in to Cuba never to return them. He pulled a similar episode with the rent lady by leaving and not paying the final 2 weeks rent. Then when he found out he wasn't getting in to Cuba, he was forced to arrange to have them returned. I presume he did this in case the library would track him down and issue a late-penalty.

 

Mobile View