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Author Topic: Marie Fonzi and Veciana's "Revelation"  (Read 434 times)

Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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Marie Fonzi and Veciana's "Revelation"
« on: January 16, 2020, 02:38:41 PM »
Much was made of Veciana's 2013 "revelation" that Bishop was really David Phillips. But it seems there was a guiding hand behind his announcement:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2020/01/marie-fonzi-and-vecianas-revelation.html
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 12:49:50 AM by W. Tracy Parnell »

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: Marie Fonzi and Veciana's "Revelation"
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2020, 04:11:26 PM »
Good work! In this discussion 4 to 5 years ago, I was uncomfortable going against the CT tide on Veciana's long delayed revelation, but I did because of the unevenness, to put it mildly, of Veciana's prior statements, life events, and his history with Godoy.
https://jfkfacts.org/antonio-vecianas-transformation-from-jfk-hater-to-admirer/

Mr. Parnell, your new research would have raised my comfort level in the discussion at the link above in which I agreed with Dr. McAdams about the unreliability of Veciana, but felt Dr. McAdams protested too much, considering there was less known in 2016 and McAdams's posting in that discussion was almost as outsized as this post has grown to be, in your thread. I apologize for the intrusion.

 Godoy was linked in CIA documents to "Jake" Cogswell. I linked Cogswell with lifelong mutual family ties in Scarsdale to Richard Ober.  Cogswell also was Dean Mathay's Empire Trust protoge Leslie Rice's funds flow, CIA conduit to support Godoy and other anti-Castro Cubans.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84485&relPageId=12&search=cogswell_and%20godoy

Ober's father, Harold was the book agent of F Scott Fitzgerald and parent by default of his daughter, Scottie. Cogswell married the daughter, Nancy, of Cornelius van Ness in 1945. In 1953, he remarried, to the first cousin of Will Farish, III, Joan Farish. In that wedding, Cogswell's best man was George O. Walbridge, 2d.

Lem Billings was Walbridge's boss before Billings invented "Fizzies" and resigned to promote that product. They are pictured in Cuba with an aide of Carlos Prio.
Their boss, McAdoo, at Bromo-Seltzer's Emerson parent co. was related to George DeM's aunt, Nina McAdoo DeM. Warren Commissioner and Yale Bonesman Kentucky republican Senator John Sherman Cooper's wife was formerly married to Robert McAdoo ... Lorraine Cooper's obit:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1985/02/06/lorraine-cooper-79-leader-in-washington-society-dies/87bfe959-8e89-40ad-b03c-1e348a68bcde/

 and William Macomber had been a key aide to the Senator after his CIA stint and before becoming a key aide to Foster Dulles. Macomber was best man of Tom Devine, May, 1963 "CIA shadow of George DeM in NYC and DC. Cogswell allegedly brought Joseph Dryer, Jr to the attention of HSCA owing to Dryer's familiarity with George DeM. Joan Mellen told me Dryer confirmed Devine was his closest friend growing up in Rochester, also the hometown of Macomber.



Cogswell and Richard Ober resided one mile apart in then rural Scarsdale, NY. They attended Phillips-Exeter simultaneously






Quote
A Guide to F. Scott Fitzgerald's St. Paul - Page 52 - Google Books Result
John J. Koblas - 2004 - ‎Travel
On his daily walks from the house on Goodrich to the office, Fitzgerald often ... to talk and drink with proprietors Cornelius Van Ness and Thomas A. Boyd.

Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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Re: Marie Fonzi and Veciana's "Revelation"
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2020, 04:44:59 PM »
Thanks Tom and thanks for the link to the interesting debate.

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Marie Fonzi and Veciana's "Revelation"
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2020, 08:41:28 PM »
Much was made of Veciana's 2014 "revelation" that Bishop was really David Phillips. But it seems there was a guiding hand behind his announcement:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2020/01/marie-fonzi-and-vecianas-revelation.html
If I may, Tracy, I'll add this to the issue. From Veciana's account in his book "Trained to Kill" of this "admission", i.e., Phillips was Bishop:

"And Gaeton's widow, Marie Fonzi, was schedule to appear there [at the conference]. With her as my witness, I felt I could finally make public the secret that had been burning inside of me for all of those years. I felt honestly that with her there in that crowded room, I was honoring her husband, Gaeton, my friend.

He had known all along. But now, with her there listening as I stated publicly what he had so cleverly deduced, I felt that he would hear too. I had told Marie in November before, in a letter. But this was different. This was me telling everyone that Gaeton had been right. I had denied him that confirmation in life. In this forum, in front of a room full of people, it wasn't just me telling what I knew. I was telling everyone that he knew, too."

Hmm. Throughout the book he mentions his promise of secrecy (he actually signed some sort of an agreement) that he made to Bishop when he first allegedly joined up with him. And that being faithful to that promise was important to him and was why he denied all of those thirty-plus years that Phillips was Bishop. Nowhere does he mention that he struggled with this, that he had a burning desire to reveal the secret. This sounds insincere to me but others can make his or her own judgment.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 08:49:41 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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Re: Marie Fonzi and Veciana's "Revelation"
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2020, 11:38:29 PM »
If I may, Tracy, I'll add this to the issue. From Veciana's account in his book "Trained to Kill" of this "admission", i.e., Phillips was Bishop:

"And Gaeton's widow, Marie Fonzi, was schedule to appear there [at the conference]. With her as my witness, I felt I could finally make public the secret that had been burning inside of me for all of those years. I felt honestly that with her there in that crowded room, I was honoring her husband, Gaeton, my friend.

He had known all along. But now, with her there listening as I stated publicly what he had so cleverly deduced, I felt that he would hear too. I had told Marie in November before, in a letter. But this was different. This was me telling everyone that Gaeton had been right. I had denied him that confirmation in life. In this forum, in front of a room full of people, it wasn't just me telling what I knew. I was telling everyone that he knew, too."

Hmm. Throughout the book he mentions his promise of secrecy (he actually signed some sort of an agreement) that he made to Bishop when he first allegedly joined up with him. And that being faithful to that promise was important to him and was why he denied all of those thirty-plus years that Phillips was Bishop. Nowhere does he mention that he struggled with this, that he had a burning desire to reveal the secret. This sounds insincere to me but others can make his or her own judgment.

His book, which is a virtually fictionalized account of his life, is his attempt to write his own history. He had been asked repeatedly over the years, including recently, if Bishop was Phillips and denied it. There was absolutely nothing stopping him from revealing this if he wanted to. But he never did until Mrs. Fonzi pestered him into it. Even the conspiracy people are doubting his whole story now.

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Marie Fonzi and Veciana's "Revelation"
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2020, 05:16:31 PM »
His book, which is a virtually fictionalized account of his life, is his attempt to write his own history. He had been asked repeatedly over the years, including recently, if Bishop was Phillips and denied it. There was absolutely nothing stopping him from revealing this if he wanted to. But he never did until Mrs. Fonzi pestered him into it. Even the conspiracy people are doubting his whole story now.
Even for years AFTER Phillips' death in 1988, at a time when Phillips couldn't exact "revenge", e.g., defamation suit, on Veciana, he repeatedly and explicitly said that Bishop was not Phillips. Again and again and again; under oath, to Fonzi, to reporters, to, as far as I know, anyone who asked. He's simply not credible at all about this "revelation".

After you first wrote about this claim we discussed that, among other problems, it made no sense that Phillips would be able (or try) to semi-openly travel around Cuba in late 1959/1960 and recruit assets/agents. It was simply too dangerous. Castro started his major crackdown on the country in 1959; East German and other Soviet bloc security people were going to Cuba to help him cement his power. Castro's agents were everywhere. Veciana himself discusses this in his book and how he had to be extra cautious at the time. Havana was rounding up opponents, real and suspected.

As Newman pointed out, Phillips had to be withdrawn in early 1960 as the situation became increasingly precarious. Nowhere have I read in any of Fonzi's work that he tried to put the situation of Cuba at that time into his theory. As he himself said, he wasn't a conspiracy theorist; he was a conspiracy believer. Everything he did, for me, emanated from that view.

Morley's a smart man. Bill Kelly seems bright too. That these two seemingly intelligent people (among other) continue to fall for this is an interesting insight into human behavior. As the saying goes (Saul Bellow, my absolute favorite modern fiction writer), "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." Yes, the conspiracists say the same thing about us.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 09:31:42 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Marie Fonzi and Veciana's "Revelation"
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2020, 05:48:00 PM »
An extensive report. Took time to compile it and will take time to review.
As a sideline.... I am pleased to see that the Parnell 'Oswald Timeline' is back up.
http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm

Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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Re: Marie Fonzi and Veciana's "Revelation"
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2020, 11:41:44 PM »
Even for years AFTER Phillips' death in 1988, at a time when Phillips couldn't exact "revenge", e.g., defamation suit, on Veciana, he repeatedly and explicitly said that Bishop was not Phillips. Again and again and again; under oath, to Fonzi, to reporters, to, as far as I know, anyone who asked. He's simply not credible at all about this "revelation".

After you first wrote about this claim we discussed that, among other problems, it made no sense that Phillips would be able (or try) to semi-openly travel around Cuba in late 1959/1960 and recruit assets/agents. It was simply too dangerous. Castro started his major crackdown on the country in 1959; East German and other Soviet bloc security people were going to Cuba to help him cement his power. Castro's agents were everywhere. Veciana himself discusses this in his book and how he had to be extra cautious at the time. Havana was rounding up opponents, real and suspected.

As Newman pointed out, Phillips had to be withdrawn in early 1960 as the situation became increasingly precarious. Nowhere have I read in any of Fonzi's work that he tried to put the situation of Cuba at that time into his theory. As he himself said, he wasn't a conspiracy theorist; he was a conspiracy believer. Everything he did, for me, emanated from that view.

Morley's a smart man. Bill Kelly seems bright too. That these two seemingly intelligent people (among other) continue to fall for this is an interesting insight into human behavior. As the saying goes (Saul Bellow, my absolute favorite modern fiction writer), "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." Yes, the conspiracists say the same thing about us.

Great observations Steve. The one thing Fonzi, Kelly and Morley have in common is they want to believe Veciana so they do (did in Fonzi's case).

Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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Re: Marie Fonzi and Veciana's "Revelation"
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2020, 11:43:03 PM »
An extensive report. Took time to compile it and will take time to review.
As a sideline.... I am pleased to see that the Parnell 'Oswald Timeline' is back up.
http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm

Glad you find the timeline useful Jerry and thanks for mentioning it.

 

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