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Author Topic: The Silent Conspiracy  (Read 3096 times)

Offline Jon Banks

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Re: The Silent Conspiracy
« Reply #110 on: January 22, 2020, 07:36:26 PM »
Right, but the intriguing thing to me is that they processed his application. Why not just throw it away? He's viewed as a crank, an oddball that they wanted nothing to do with. And then they sent it on? Mirabal signed off on it; and he said that he thought Oswald might have been a "provocateur" sent to cause problems.

As to finding it: again, it would be given contingent on him presenting a Soviet visa. He shows them his Soviet visa and they give him a transit visa.

But our conspiracy friends can answer all of this: it wasn't Oswald. It was a double. Two Oswalds, two rifles, two Zapruder films (at least), two gunmen, two autopsies.....it never ends.

In Dallas Oswald kept a low-profile and didn't do much to draw attention to himself.

In New Orleans and Mexico City, he did everything but keep a low profile. He did lots of things to draw attention to himself.

Despite all that, there are no photos of him in Mexico City. I don't think that is coincidental.

The most obvious possibility is that it was a charade and he was being used as some sort of Intelligence asset (witting or unwitting).

The intent of the project may have had more to do with FBI/CIA attempts to sabotage the Fair Play For Cuba organization than a conspiracy to make Oswald look suspicious weeks before the Kennedy assassination.

There's too much smoke around Mexico City to say that all the weird stuff was just coincidental...

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: The Silent Conspiracy
« Reply #111 on: January 22, 2020, 08:13:48 PM »
Right, but the intriguing thing to me is that they processed his application. Why not just throw it away? He's viewed as a crank, an oddball that they wanted nothing to do with. And then they sent it on? Mirabal signed off on it; and he said that he thought Oswald might have been a "provocateur" sent to cause problems.

As to finding it: again, it would be given contingent on him presenting a Soviet visa. He shows them his Soviet visa and they give him a transit visa.

But our conspiracy friends can answer all of this: it wasn't Oswald. It was a double. Two Oswalds, two rifles, two Zapruder films (at least), two gunmen, two autopsies.....it never ends.

I wonder if it actually ever was granted.  Or whether the letter you noted has been misconstrued as granting his request and others simply repeated that over the years.  I don't know for sure.  Maybe someone here has the document demonstrating that his Cuban visa was granted.  If it was, it was likely just processed by the bureaucracy.  Maybe they had a policy to automatically do so with the understanding that the Russians were ultimately in control of whoever they wanted to allow into their country.  I vaguely recall reading something along those lines but can't remember where.

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: The Silent Conspiracy
« Reply #112 on: January 22, 2020, 08:25:10 PM »
In Dallas Oswald kept a low-profile and didn't do much to draw attention to himself.

In New Orleans and Mexico City, he did everything but keep a low profile. He did lots of things to draw attention to himself.

Despite all that, there are no photos of him in Mexico City. I don't think that is coincidental.

The most obvious possibility is that it was a charade and he was being used as some sort of Intelligence asset (witting or unwitting).

The intent of the project may have had more to do with FBI/CIA attempts to sabotage the Fair Play For Cuba organization than a conspiracy to make Oswald look suspicious weeks before the Kennedy assassination.

There's too much smoke around Mexico City to say that all the weird stuff was just coincidental...
Why would there be pictures of him in Mexico City? What did he do to publicly draw attention to himself? The only thing he did in Mexico City to draw attention  was cause a disturbance inside the Cuban consulate and then inside the Soviet Embassy. Again, inside both buildings. If there would be photos of him the Cuban and/or Soviet would have taken them.

If his or a purpose was to somehow embarrass the FPCC (yes, I am aware of the Angleton/CI/Jane Roman matter) with his behavior, how is acting rudely inside these building embarrassing the FPCC? The only people who would know about his behavior are Cuban and Soviet officials.

And the HSCA answered why the CIA failed to photograph him on Friday. Incompetence.

According to eyewitnesses - and his account as related by Marina - he simply went to the local restaurant, ate there and returned to his room. He did supposedly watched a bull fight.

I don't see how you think he did things in Mexico City that would lead to him being photographed. And if the CIA was somehow trying to discredit the FPCC this is an odd way to do it. How is acting rude to Cubans - and only Cubans - discrediting the FPCC.

I think you are seeing things that aren't there.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 09:13:28 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline Jon Banks

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Re: The Silent Conspiracy
« Reply #113 on: January 22, 2020, 09:58:22 PM »
Why would there be pictures of him in Mexico City? What did he do to publicly draw attention to himself? The only thing he did in Mexico City to draw attention  was cause a disturbance inside the Cuban consulate and then inside the Soviet Embassy. Again, inside both buildings. If there would be photos of him the Cuban and/or Soviet would have taken them.

Embassies generally are under the constant surveillance of one or more governments. It seems almost unbelievable that he wasn't photographed entering or leaving the Soviet or Cuban embassies.

And I'm not arguing that he didn't really visit the Cubans and Soviets. I think maybe it was intentional, not a coincidence. I do think Oswald was being directed by someone with Intelligence ties.

He did just enough to make sure people in intelligence circles knew he was there.

If his or a purpose was to somehow embarrass the FPCC (yes, I am aware of the Angleton/CI/Jane Roman matter) with his behavior, how is acting rudely inside these building embarrassing the FPCC? The only people who would know about his behavior are Cuban and Soviet officials.

I think Oswald's public persona in New Orleans and clashing with the DRE was intended to create bad PR for the FPCC. I suspect the strange trip to Mexico City might've been related to the activities New Orleans but am less certain of that.

He certainly made himself visible to spies in Mexico City. But you're right, I'm not sure if we'd ever know about his visit to Mexico City if it didn't get revealed through investigations.

According to eyewitnesses - and his account as related by Marina - he simply went to the local restaurant, ate there and returned to his room. He did supposedly watched a bull fight.

Other witnesses say he appeared at a party in Mexico City with Sylvia Duran and some Cubans.

He also stayed at a hotel that was known as a meeting spot for Cuban Intel (according to Amb. Thomas Mann)

Marina only knows what Lee wanted her to know. She wasn't with him in Mexico City.


I don't see how you think he did things in Mexico City that would lead to him being photographed.

If you visit an embassy you will be photographed by someone (likely without your knowledge). That's just a fact 9 times out of 10.

Look at the Jamaal Khasoggi incident for example. The Turks had the Saudi embassy under video and audio surveillance.

I think even in the early 60's there were ways to surveil embassies 24-7.

And if the CIA was somehow trying to discredit the FPCC this is an odd way to do it. How is acting rude to Cubans - and only Cubans - discrediting the FPCC.


We know the CIA and FBI wanted to plant some bad publicity for the FPCC around the time of Summer/Fall of 1963. It could be coincidental but the overlap between their objectives and Oswald's sudden interest in the FPCC shouldn't be ignored.

From JFKFacts:

“As historian David Kaiser revealed in his deeply researched book “The Road to Dallas,” COINTELPRO targeted the pro-Castro Fair Play for Cuba Committee for disruption and discrediting in the summer of 1963. At the time Lee Harvey Oswald was founding his own chapter of the FPCC in New Orleans — over the written objections of the FPCC’s leadership.

As Bill Simpich documents in his revelatory and important ebook, “State Secret,” the FBI and the CIA’s counterintelligence staff worked together on a program to discredit the FPCC 1963 throughout the fall of 1963.

Here’s the CIA’s Sept. 16, 1963 memo to the FBI about the operation to discredit the FPCC “in foreign countries.”

The author of the memo, John Tilton, was a supervisor of George Joannides, the Miami-based undercover officer whose paid assets in the Cuban Student Directorate (DRE) publicized and denounced Oswald’s pro-Castro activities in New Orleans in August 1963.


https://jfkfacts.org/the-jfk-connection-why-cointelpro-still-matters/

All roads lead to Angleton...
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 12:07:23 PM by Jon Banks »

Offline Charles Collins

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Re: The Silent Conspiracy
« Reply #114 on: January 23, 2020, 12:26:18 PM »
I think it is possible that Oswald vowed to commit some violent act to convince the Cubans of his sincerity to the cause.  I doubt, however, that it involved a direct threat to JFK since Oswald would have had no way to know the opportunity would ever arise at the time he was in Mexico City.  It would not have been until the week of the assassination that he would have any clue that opportunity would present itself.  And he made no apparent effort after returning to the US to track down JFK.  He may have told them he was the one who tried to kill Walker to impress them with his dedication.  The Cubans likely thought he was a nut or some type of CIA plant.  After the assassination, they would be reluctant to admit that Oswald made any threat for fear it would be used against them as pretext for linking them to Oswald in a plan to assassinate JFK.   So they did some CYA.  I doubt Oswald's visit to Mexico City - even if he made promises to commit violent acts - would rise to the level of anything told to Castro before the assassination.


  I doubt Oswald's visit to Mexico City - even if he made promises to commit violent acts - would rise to the level of anything told to Castro before the assassination.

I beg to differ. Here are a couple of quotes from “Castro’s Secrets” by Brian Latell:

I confess that many times I have meditated on the dramatic story of John F. Kennedy.

It was my fate to live through the era when he was the greatest and most dangerous adversary of the Revolution.

—Fidel Castro, April 24, 2009


Some walk-ins are turned away at the doors of foreign embassies when they arrive cold, without warning or sensitive documents...

...The Cubans, in contrast, usually are less cautious when approached by strangers offering to help. Aspillaga told me that “Cuba is freer”; the philosophy generally is “You take what comes.” Exaggerating to make the point, he added, “If a million people come, we would handle the million people.” In countries all over the world, true believers in Fidel and his revolution have volunteered their services this way, literally knocking on the doors of Cuban embassies. John F. Kennedy’s assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, was one of them.



Castro was very much hands-on in charge of the DGI. Most of the people that LHO encountered at the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City were DGI assets. If LHO did threaten to kill JFK, then I believe that Castro would have been told about it.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 03:17:00 PM by Charles Collins »

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: The Silent Conspiracy
« Reply #115 on: January 23, 2020, 02:01:56 PM »
Embassies generally are under the constant surveillance of one or more governments. It seems almost unbelievable that he wasn't photographed entering or leaving the Soviet or Cuban embassies.

And I'm not arguing that he didn't really visit the Cubans and Soviets. I think maybe it was intentional, not a coincidence. I do think Oswald was being directed by someone with Intelligence ties.

He did just enough to make sure people in intelligence circles knew he was there.

I think Oswald's public persona in New Orleans and clashing with the DRE was intended to create bad PR for the FPCC. I suspect the strange trip to Mexico City might've been related to the activities New Orleans but am less certain of that.

He certainly made himself visible to spies in Mexico City. But you're right, I'm not sure if we'd ever know about his visit to Mexico City if it didn't get revealed through investigations.

Other witnesses say he appeared at a party in Mexico City with Sylvia Duran and some Cubans.

He also stayed at a hotel that was known as a meeting spot for Cuban Intel (according to Amb. Thomas Mann)

Marina only knows what Lee wanted her to know. She wasn't with him in Mexico City.

If you visit an embassy you will be photographed by someone (likely without your knowledge). That's just a fact 9 times out of 10.

Look at the Jamaal Khasoggi incident for example. The Turks had the Saudi embassy under video and audio surveillance.

I think even in the early 60's there were ways to surveil embassies 24-7.

We know the CIA and FBI wanted to plant some bad publicity for the FPCC around the time of Summer/Fall of 1963. It could be coincidental but the overlap between their objectives and Oswald's sudden interest in the FPCC shouldn't be ignored.

From JFKFacts:

“As historian David Kaiser revealed in his deeply researched book “The Road to Dallas,” COINTELPRO targeted the pro-Castro Fair Play for Cuba Committee for disruption and discrediting in the summer of 1963. At the time Lee Harvey Oswald was founding his own chapter of the FPCC in New Orleans — over the written objections of the FPCC’s leadership.

As Bill Simpich documents in his revelatory and important ebook, “State Secret,” the FBI and the CIA’s counterintelligence staff worked together on a program to discredit the FPCC 1963 throughout the fall of 1963.

Here’s the CIA’s Sept. 16, 1963 memo to the FBI about the operation to discredit the FPCC “in foreign countries.”

The author of the memo, John Tilton, was a supervisor of George Joannides, the Miami-based undercover officer whose paid assets in the Cuban Student Directorate (DRE) publicized and denounced Oswald’s pro-Castro activities in New Orleans in August 1963.


https://jfkfacts.org/the-jfk-connection-why-cointelpro-still-matters/

All roads lead to Angleton...

In 1963, the surveillance methods would have been a lot more primitive than they are today.  That is not a valid comparison.  In addition, who is to say the CIA didn't take pictures of Oswald or have other information relating to his visit?   After his death, they would have no incentive to release such pictures and reveal to the Cubans and Russians their sources for obtaining information.  Anything they revealed about Oswald's visit could be reversed engineered to learn its source and if the CIA had any information that should have made Oswald more suspicious then better to cover it up and not be subject to criticism for failing to keep a closer eye on him.  Intelligence agencies never like to reveal anything.  All of Oswald's actions are consistent with those of a political kook.  It is easy to graft onto his actions some type of fantastic James Bond narrative but there is no credible evidence.  If he made himself "visible" it was in the pursuit of his nutty fantasy of becoming some type of revolutionary figure.  That necessitated associating himself with folks who were in the Cuban or Russian intelligence community (basically anyone at those embassies).  But that doesn't mean he was being directed by anyone.  It is entirely consistent with Oswald's erratic behavior.

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: The Silent Conspiracy
« Reply #116 on: January 23, 2020, 02:23:02 PM »
In 1963, the surveillance methods would have been a lot more primitive than they are today.  That is not a valid comparison.  In addition, who is to say the CIA didn't take pictures of Oswald or have other information relating to his visit?   After his death, they would have no incentive to release such pictures and reveal to the Cubans and Russians their sources for obtaining information.  Anything they revealed about Oswald's visit could be reversed engineered to learn its source and if the CIA had any information that should have made Oswald more suspicious then better to cover it up and not be subject to criticism for failing to keep a closer eye on him.  Intelligence agencies never like to reveal anything.  All of Oswald's actions are consistent with those of a political kook.  It is easy to graft onto his actions some type of fantastic James Bond narrative but there is no credible evidence.  If he made himself "visible" it was in the pursuit of his nutty fantasy of becoming some type of revolutionary figure.  That necessitated associating himself with folks who were in the Cuban or Russian intelligence community (basically anyone at those embassies).  But that doesn't mean he was being directed by anyone.  It is entirely consistent with Oswald's erratic behavior.
The CIA did release photos of that "mystery" person who they suspected on Monday may have been Oswald that visited the Soviet Embassy. But that was a major screwup - bureaucracies do what bureaucracies do - and had nothing to do with someone impersonating Oswald. The Soviet Embassy officials/KGB senior agents were shown photos of the "mystery" person and all said it wasn't the person who said he was Oswald. They said the man they met who identified himself as Oswald was the man arrested for assassinating JFK: that is, Oswald.

In any case, if they were worried about revealing sources and methods then why did they release those photos? I don't think they had any photos of him; the camera was down and for some reason they didn't cover the embassy on weekends. We like to think that the CIA is some sort of top flight organization that is in control of things but we need to remember it's also a bureaucracy that sometimes just is incompetent.

Again though: how is photographing Oswald going into the Cuban consulate or Soviet Embassy part of any plan to discredit the FPCC? I just don't see how his trip to MC can be considered part of any counter intelligence operation to make the FPCC look bad. Sure, he embarrassed himself to some Cubans and Soviets. But had he not assassinated JFK that would never have been known except by the people involved.


Offline Richard Smith

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Re: The Silent Conspiracy
« Reply #117 on: January 23, 2020, 03:28:24 PM »
The CIA did release photos of that "mystery" person who they suspected on Monday may have been Oswald that visited the Soviet Embassy. But that was a major screwup - bureaucracies do what bureaucracies do - and had nothing to do with someone impersonating Oswald. The Soviet Embassy officials/KGB senior agents were shown photos of the "mystery" person and all said it wasn't the person who said he was Oswald. They said the man they met who identified himself as Oswald was the man arrested for assassinating JFK: that is, Oswald.

In any case, if they were worried about revealing sources and methods then why did they release those photos? I don't think they had any photos of him; the camera was down and for some reason they didn't cover the embassy on weekends. We like to think that the CIA is some sort of top flight organization that is in control of things but we need to remember it's also a bureaucracy that sometimes just is incompetent.

Again though: how is photographing Oswald going into the Cuban consulate or Soviet Embassy part of any plan to discredit the FPCC? I just don't see how his trip to MC can be considered part of any counter intelligence operation to make the FPCC look bad. Sure, he embarrassed himself to some Cubans and Soviets. But had he not assassinated JFK that would never have been known except by the people involved.

They could have been inept or they could used this as an opportunity to make themselves look inept to the Russians/Cubans.  Let's say they had a hundred pictures of Oswald from a dozen locations and were really on the ball.  But they release a picture of someone they know is not Oswald to give the Russians/Cubans the impression that their surveillance is spotty instead.  I'm not saying that is what happened.  They may simply have not been taking pictures of everyone who entered a Cuban or Russian embassy around the entire world.  That would be quite a task.  It wouldn't surprise me that, in 1963, not everyone was photographed.  Today they probably can do it but not then.  Regardless, there are a number of plausible explanations for why there was no picture of Oswald.  I was just responding to the claim that the lack of any photograph is indicative of Oswald being some type of agent.

Offline Jon Banks

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Re: The Silent Conspiracy
« Reply #118 on: January 23, 2020, 04:40:33 PM »
I don't think they had any photos of him; the camera was down and for some reason they didn't cover the embassy on weekends.

Which is exactly why I suggested it maybe was intentional that he wasn’t photographed, not a coincidence.

Only a CIA insider would know when the cameras were Offline if there was some sort of schedule.

Someone with that kind of knowledge could’ve been involved with the whole charade that brought Oswald to Mexico City.

We like to think that the CIA is some sort of top flight organization that is in control of things but we need to remember it's also a bureaucracy that sometimes just is incompetent.

The CIA is very compartmentalized. There are different departments within the agency working independently of each other.

It’s likely that some folks at Langley knew more about Oswald than the CIA employees in Mexico City.

Again though: how is photographing Oswald going into the Cuban consulate or Soviet Embassy part of any plan to discredit the FPCC? I just don't see how his trip to MC can be considered part of any counter intelligence operation to make the FPCC look bad. Sure, he embarrassed himself to some Cubans and Soviets. But had he not assassinated JFK that would never have been known except by the people involved.

I’ll grant you that I don’t know for certain the purpose of Oswald’s Mexico City trip. It may have been related to what he was doing in New Orleans or it may have been completely unrelated. I don’t really know for sure.

There is much about the Mexico City episode that we’ll never know because there was an Intelligence Cover-Up. Some people didn’t want to open that can of worms. Not just the CIA. Mexican Intelligence and Cuban Intelligence may have covered up some info too.

The little that we do know makes me think the goal of Oswald going to Cuba was just a charade and that one real objective was to put Oswald in a position where he would attract the attention of international Intelligence agents.

In espionage, that’s called a “Dangle”.

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The Silent Conspiracy
« Reply #119 on: March 04, 2020, 07:41:11 PM »
We know Oswald was doing his best to create a resume to impress the Cubans with the objective of gaining entry into Cuba.  It is plausible that he mentioned his attempt on Walker while in Mexico City as part of that process.  Or made some reference to a willingness to commit violence on behalf of Castro.  The Cubans probably thought he was a nut.  They would not have informed Castro about some nut who showed up in Mexico City.

 After the fact, the Cubans might have believed Oswald was some type of CIA asset who was sent to implicate them in the assassination.  So they cover up whatever threat Oswald made.  And it could not have related to JFK since Oswald would have had no idea at that time that he would ever have an opportunity to assassinate him.  It would have been more general such as a promise to commit some bold or violent act.  Later on, once the incident could no longer be used as a pretext for war, Castro would have used the incident to enhance his reputation as someone with knowledge about the JFK assassination.
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We know Oswald was doing his best to create a resume to impress the Cubans...
We do?    ::)
Talk about wild ass conspiracy theories! Speculate us to death now.
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The Cubans probably thought he was a nut...They would not have informed Castro...
Uh...wasn't Castro a Cuban?  :D

 

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