CE 2562

[John Mytton]

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11277#relPageId=55&tab=page

Thanks Tim, the reason why the shipping documents and the Kleins paperwork both have the weight as 750 is because initially that's what they were told by the supplier "Crescent Firearms" and imo unless there was some obvious discrepency, Lifschultz went with what was on the paperwork.
Also note that the 750 appears to include an unknown number of clips.



JohnM

[John Tonkovich]

Thanks Tim, the reason why the shipping documents and the Kleins paperwork both have the weight as 750 is because initially that's what they were told by the supplier "Crescent Firearms" and imo unless there was some obvious discrepency, Lifschultz went with what was on the paperwork.
Also note that the 750 appears to include an unknown number of clips.



JohnM

Where's the notation on clips?  Thanks.

[Tim Nickerson]

I think when a shipper provides containers, it more applies to things like bulk fruit and vegetables, or grain and ore.

I doubt a shipper would have provided the cardboard containers used to pack the Carcanos in Italy. I believe each Carcano was wrapped in heavy paper and placed side-by-side in the container, with some packing material to fill gaps between. Things wouldn't shift much. The overseas shipment would have been gross weight, including tare. In the USA, Adam could have gotten a freight contract for "net weight", arguing the containers were cardboard and that the rifles (TS at first, then Short Rifles) being shipped had different weights.

When you say "the 36" model Oswald ordered", you appear to be going solely by the Feb-1963 ad saying the length was 36" (a TS is 36 1/2"). In that case, do you also accept that Klein's was shipping a rifle that weighed 5 1/2 lbs (the TS weighed about 6.4 lbs) and the model-type illustrated (shortened M91 Rifle)?



The Order No and price in the Feb-1963 ad reflect the 40" M91/38 Short Rifle (Adam sold those to Klein's for one dollar more; the TS Order No was C20-T749 for $11.88). Klein's updated the length and weight (albeit wrong but now closer) in later ads the same year. The Order No and price remained the same or near to it. I don't know what year (if any) they updated the illustrated. Possibly Klein's dropped the Carcano mali-order offers in the wake of the assassination, and sold remaining stock on the floor or through an auction.

Oswald ordered the "packaged deal" (Order No C20-750) for $19.95. It makes sense to me that the "package deal" would mean the base model in the same ad to which a scope was added.

Jerry, I recall reading some time ago that each rifle was package individually in cardboard and then placed in another cardboard box with nine others..

[Tim Nickerson]

Thanks Tim, the reason why the shipping documents and the Kleins paperwork both have the weight as 750 is because initially that's what they were told by the supplier "Crescent Firearms" and imo unless there was some obvious discrepency, Lifschultz went with what was on the paperwork.
Also note that the 750 appears to include an unknown number of clips.



JohnM

I don't know if you noticed or not but a number of the documents seem to refer to the weight of the rifles being shipped as being 750lbs.

[Tim Nickerson]

Jerry`s reference ad - and his post -state C20-T750 as 36" rifle with scope.

Another graphic by John Mytton just to reiterate the point he already made. Oswald ordered a C20-T750. That was Klein's catalogue number for a Carcano packaged with a scope. In January of 1963, they were offering the 36 inch model under that catalogue number. In March, when Oswald placed his order via mail,  they no longer had the 36 inch model in stock. They were offering the 40 inch model under catalogue #C20-T750. Oswald ordered a C20-T750  and that's what Klein shipped to him.

[Martin Weidmann]

Another graphic by John Mytton just to reiterate the point he already made. Oswald ordered a C20-T750. That was Klein's catalogue number for a Carcano packaged with a scope. In January of 1963, they were offering the 36 inch model under that catalogue number. In March, when Oswald placed his order via mail,  they no longer had the 36 inch model in stock. They were offering the 40 inch model under catalogue #C20-T750. Oswald ordered a C20-T750  and that's what Klein shipped to him.

Oswald ordered a C20-T750.

If we assume that Oswald is indeed Hidell, then, yes he did.

That was Klein's catalogue number for a Carcano packaged with a scope.

Again, correct, but not complete. The devil is in the details. The order coupon (as well as the envelope) were addressed to Dept. 358, which told Klein's that the order coupon came from the February 1963 issue of American Rifleman, in which the 36" MC rifle was advertised.

Klein's had no reason to send a 40" rifle which were not even advertised until April 1963.

[John Tonkovich]

Oswald ordered a C20-T750.

If we assume that Oswald is indeed Hidell, then, yes he did.

That was Klein's catalogue number for a Carcano packaged with a scope.

Again, correct, but not complete. The devil is in the details. The order coupon (as well as the envelope) were addressed to Dept. 358, which told Klein's that the order coupon came from the February 1963 issue of American Rifleman, in which the 36" MC rifle was advertised.

Klein's had no reason to send a 40" rifle which were not even advertised until April 1963.

Thanks for the them clarification.

[Tim Nickerson]

Oswald ordered a C20-T750.

If we assume that Oswald is indeed Hidell, then, yes he did.

That was Klein's catalogue number for a Carcano packaged with a scope.

Again, correct, but not complete. The devil is in the details. The order coupon (as well as the envelope) were addressed to Dept. 358, which told Klein's that the order coupon came from the February 1963 issue of American Rifleman, in which the 36" MC rifle was advertised.

Klein's had no reason to send a 40" rifle which were not even advertised until April 1963.

How were Klein's to send Oswald a 36 inch Carcano in March when they didn't have any to send? They had 40 inch rifles in stock and that's what they were offering under the catalogue #C20-T750.