CE 2562

[John Tonkovich]

The rifles did not come with bayonets....So the weight of the rifle without the sling or scope should have been 7 and 1/2 pounds.....

I weighed my model 91/38 short rifle ( 40.2") and it weighs 7.8 pounds with a leather sling attached.   I'd guess the sling weighs about 2 ounces....

Interesting. Thanks.

Your post - I'm sure it's accidental- has your reply in your quote of my post. For the record, I own no rifles.

[John Tonkovich]

Don't take anything literal from the illustration. I have no idea how the Carcanos were placed in the box. May have been 2 rows of 5 or some other configuration.

I can't prove it to your satisfaction but I believe the Carcanos were shipped in cardboard boxes. This box, for example, could hold ten Carcanos and it claims to hold up to 80 lbs. ( Link ). Back in the 1960s, balled-up newspaper and bagged popcorn or wood chips made lightweight packing material. Maybe a few cardboard cut-outs that supported the rifle inside the box.

Can't see them using wood and all that extra shipping weight for surplus weapons with a small profit margin. Since the container was cardboard, a shipper might be willing to charge "Net Weight" only (weight of goods, excluding container) to secure a contract.

I have some doubt about the "net weight" theory, since shippers usually deduct "tare" from containers they provide to clients. (I'm willing to be corrected on that; I am no expert on shipping, and yes, I am not - unlike the Pope, allegedly - infallible.)

But if we go with your proposition on shipping weight of the rifles, 750lbs for 100 units, then the rifles would be 7.5lbs each, i.e. 40" rifle, not the 36" model Oswald ordered. No? Yes?

[Walt Cakebread]

I have some doubt about the "net weight" theory, since shippers usually deduct "tare" from containers they provide to clients. (I'm willing to be corrected on that; I am no expert on shipping, and yes, I am not - unlike the Pope, allegedly - infallible.)

But if we go with your proposition on shipping weight of the rifles, 750lbs for 100 units, then the rifles would be 7.5lbs each, i.e. 40" rifle, not the 36" model Oswald ordered. No? Yes?

Yes, The 40 inch long, 7.5 pound, model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano short rifle is the rifle that was sent to PO box 2915 in Dallas....   But when it was shipped to Dallas it had a scope attached which increased the weight to 8 pounds.    I believe that it is the same rifle that was found on the sixth floor where it had been carefully hidden beneath a pallet that had boxes of books stacked on it ( It had NOT been hastily cast aside) ...And it had NOT been fired that day....So it was NOT the murder weapon.

The Carcano was found well hidden beneath a heavy pallet of boxes of books.  Boone and Weitzman had to use powerful flashlights to enable them to see beneath the pallet where the rifle was lying on it's right side ( Sling and scope up)  Detective Robert Studebaker measured the distance from the interior side of the north wall of the building and recorded that the rifle was 25 feet 4 inches south of that north wall and 5 feet east of the west wall. (See Studebaker's map) The in situ photos that purportedly show the rifle as it was found are fakes.    The rifle in the in situ photo is only 13 feet from that north wall.

The DPD was forced to move the rifle over two feet north when someone realized that there wasn't a human being on earth who could reach across the distance from the aisle at the top of the stairs and place the rifle down on the floor beneath a stack of books that was four feet high.

[Jerry Organ]

I have some doubt about the "net weight" theory, since shippers usually deduct "tare" from containers they provide to clients. (I'm willing to be corrected on that; I am no expert on shipping, and yes, I am not - unlike the Pope, allegedly - infallible.)

I think when a shipper provides containers, it more applies to things like bulk fruit and vegetables, or grain and ore.

I doubt a shipper would have provided the cardboard containers used to pack the Carcanos in Italy. I believe each Carcano was wrapped in heavy paper and placed side-by-side in the container, with some packing material to fill gaps between. Things wouldn't shift much. The overseas shipment would have been gross weight, including tare. In the USA, Adam could have gotten a freight contract for "net weight", arguing the containers were cardboard and that the rifles (TS at first, then Short Rifles) being shipped had different weights.

But if we go with your proposition on shipping weight of the rifles, 750lbs for 100 units, then the rifles would be 7.5lbs each, i.e. 40" rifle, not the 36" model Oswald ordered. No? Yes?

When you say "the 36" model Oswald ordered", you appear to be going solely by the Feb-1963 ad saying the length was 36" (a TS is 36 1/2"). In that case, do you also accept that Klein's was shipping a rifle that weighed 5 1/2 lbs (the TS weighed about 6.4 lbs) and the model-type illustrated (shortened M91 Rifle)?



The Order No and price in the Feb-1963 ad reflect the 40" M91/38 Short Rifle (Adam sold those to Klein's for one dollar more; the TS Order No was C20-T749 for $11.88). Klein's updated the length and weight (albeit wrong but now closer) in later ads the same year. The Order No and price remained the same or near to it. I don't know what year (if any) they updated the illustrated. Possibly Klein's dropped the Carcano mali-order offers in the wake of the assassination, and sold remaining stock on the floor or through an auction.

Oswald ordered the "packaged deal" (Order No C20-750) for $19.95. It makes sense to me that the "package deal" would mean the base model in the same ad to which a scope was added.

[John Tonkovich]

The order form in the National Archives shows C20-T750. 36".

[John Mytton]

The order form in the National Archives shows C20-T750. 36".

Kleins used the same catalogue number "C20-T750" for both the 36 and 40 inch Carcano rifles. Btw what is interesting is that Kleins was using the 36 inch model advertisement in another magazine as late as iirc August 1963.



JohnM

[John Tonkovich]

Kleins used the same catalogue number "C20-T750" for both the 36 and 40 inch Carcano rifles. Btw what is interesting is that Kleins was using the 36 inch model advertisement in another magazine as late as iirc August 1963.



JohnM

Jerry`s reference ad - and his post -state C20-T750 as 36" rifle with scope.

More importantly, the weight and packaging issue is unresolved.
I would think shippers charge by the pound, and there is no "tare" involved here.

[Jerry Organ]

The order form in the National Archives shows C20-T750. 36".

Doesn't the Feb-1963 order form describe the Carcano in ways order than the length, John?

Do you accept that Klein's was shipping a rifle that weighed 5 1/2 lbs (the TS weighed about 6.4 lbs) and the model-type illustrated (shortened M91 Rifle)? Just like the ad describes?

And what about the same or similar Order No and price being seen in ads later that year for a 40" Carcano?

Jerry`s reference ad - and his post-war state C20-750

The Order No for the 36.5" TS Carcano was C20-T749 and it sold for $11.88, a dollar less than the rifle being offered in the Feb-1963 ad. Klein's neglected to adjust the ad's descriptive details but had changed the Order No and price to reflect they were now selling the one-dollar-more 40" Carcanos. There were still errors in the descriptive details and the illustration remained erroneous in ads that appeared late in 1963.