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Author Topic: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy  (Read 85661 times)

Offline Wesley Johnson

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"Kindly tell me where the shooter was for putting a shot through the windshield and hitting the president in the throat?"

I don't claimed a bullet went through the windshield and hit JFK in the throat. Although it is a possibility.

"Given the layout of the Plaza, the angle and incline of Elm St., the position of the limo at the time the president reacted to that shot, physically where was that shooter?"


TESTIMONY OF (some of the) EYE-WITNESSES WHO THOUGHT SHOTS CAME FROM OTHER THAN The TSBD

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44

1.  Danny Garcia Arces - Shots came from railroad track yards.
2.  Mrs. Donald Sam Baker - Shots came from railroad yards;not possible to come from the TSBD.
3.  Mrs. A. G.(Jane)Berry- Thought shots came from west of her position.
4.  O. V. Campbell - Thought shots came from railroad yard to west of the TSBD.
5.  Mrs. Charles Thomas (Avery) Davis - Thought shots came from triple underpass.
6.  Mrs. John T. (Elsie) Dorman) - She was on the 4th floor of TSBD and thought shots came from Records Building.
7.  Mr. and Mrs. Jack Franzen - Thought shots came from area adjacent to TSBD.
8.  Buell Wesley Frazier - Thought shots came from railroad overpass.
9.  Dorthy Ann Garner - Thought shots came from west of TSBD (she was on 4th floor or TSBD)
10. Bobby W. Hargis - Believes shot came from right front (grassy knoll area) - from overpass
11. Mrs. John Hawkins - Thought shots came from railroad yards adjacent to TSBD.
12. Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill - Thought shots were coming from the knoll, just west of the TSBD.
13. Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes - Thought shots came from crowd.
14. Mrs. Yola D. Hopson - Did not think the sound (of the shots) came from the TSBD.
15. Emmet Joseph Hudson - Shots came from behind and above him; from rear, high. (He was on steps leading up knoll)
16. Mrs. George Andrew Kounas - Thought shots came from the west.
17. Secret Service Agent Paul E. Landis Jr. - 1st shot came from behind and over right shoulder; 2nd shot came from right   front and hit President's head.
18. Billy Nolan Lovelady - Thought shots came from the knoll of from across the street.
19. Judith L. McCully - From right side of arcade building.
20. Austin Lawerence Miller - Shots came from his left (he was standing on the triple underpass).
21. A. J. Millican - Shots came from the pergola.
22. Joe R. Molina - Shots came from west side (he was on steps of TSBD.
23. Thomas J. Murphy - Shots came from spot just west of TSBD.
24. Mrs. P. E. Newman - Shots came from her right (west). She was halfway from TSBD to Stemmons Freeway sign.
25. William E Newman, Jr. - Shots came from "garden" directly behind Newman (he was standing at east end of pergola)
26. Mrs. William V. Parker - First shot came from pergola.
27. J. C. Price - Assumed shots from Triple Underpass.
28. Frank E. Reilly - Shots came from trees at west end of pergola on north side of Elm. (He was standing on                  Triple Underpass). 
29. Mrs. A. L. Rowland - Shots came from railroad yard.
30. W. H. (Bill) Shelly - Shots came from west (he was on TSBD steps)
31. Police Officer Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. - Shots came from railroad yard or grassy knoll area.
32. Officer Joe Marshall Smith - Thought shots came from Elm St.extension, bushes of the overpass.
33. Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels - Shots came from knoll;'top of terrace to my right.
34. James Thomas Tague - Shots came from bushes at pergola.
35. Roy S. Truly - Shots came from west of TSBD.
36. Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford - Shots came from railroad yard.
37. County Surveyor Robert M. West - Shots came from northeast quadrant of Dealy Plaza.
38. Lupe Whitaker - Shots came from west of TSBD.
39. Otis Neville Williams - Came from direction of Triple Underpass.
40. Steven F. Wilson - Shots came from west end of building or pergola; not above.
    (He was on 3rd floor of TSBD)

41. Mary Elizabeth Woodward - Possibly came from overpass.
42. Abraham Zapruder - Shots came from in back of him.
43. Deputy Sheriff Harold Elkins


Gary, I could insert a big long list of people who said they heard three shots from the TSBD, as well, but that would be droll. Good job of inserting all that though. That must have been tedious. I do not dispute that people said they heard the shots from the TSBD or the Knoll, merely the "majority" part. If you relied, at all, on Josiah Thompson's work then you might want to rethink it. Here's the problem Gary. The vast "majority" of ear witnesses and eye witnesses at Dealy Plaza that day said they heard only (3) shots. And even authors like Thompson will tell you that. Depending on what source you cite most of the time the "majority" of witnesses claimed (3) whether they say from the TSBD or the Grassy Knoll or somewhere else. When you take into account the statements made by witnesses like Jarman, Norman, and Williams who were right below the 6th floor window and the witnesses who saw "a gunman" in the 6th floor window of the TSBD then the argument for the grassy knoll becomes more difficult. The original thread here, Lee is claiming more than (3) shots which is not supported by the "majority" of witnesses. Do you agree? How many shots do you think there were?  By the way, just a trivia note on Zapruder. When asked about where the shots were fired from, he said he assumed they came from behind him. When asked further if he had formed an opinion on the direction of the shots he said, "No there was too much reverberation. There was an echo which gave me a sound all over. In other words that square is kind of ---it had a sound all over." Interesting.

JFK Assassination Forum


Offline Gary Craig

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http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5

ARRB MD 41 - White House Transcript of Dallas Press Conference

-snip-

Q. Where was the entrance wound?

Dr.Perry: There was an entrance wound in the neck, in regards the one on the
head, I cannot say.


Q. Which way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? At him?

Dr.Perry: It appeared to be coming at him.

-snip-

Q. Doctor, describe the entrance wound. You think from the front in the throat?

Dr.Perry: The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes,
that is correct.


-snip-

----------------------

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/31st_Issue/vs_wounds.html

Mr. Specter. What would be the considerations which, in your mind, would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely?

Dr. Baxter. It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be--first its speed would create a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large wound of exit. (VI, H-42)

"Mr. Specter had even more severe problems with Dr. Ronald Coy Jones of Parkland Hospital, whom he asked about the neck wounds:"

Mr. Specter. In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following, "Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well as a small hole in the anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet entrance wound." What led you to the thought that it was a bullet entrance wound, sir?

Dr. Jones. The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination. (VI, H-55)

"Even Mr. Specter could not find in this account much opportunity for turning this neck wound into an exit wound. So, in good prosecutor-like fashion, he prodded for the thin slant of Commission daylight in Dr. Jones's otherwise dark view of the Commission's suggestions:"

Mr. Specter. Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?

Dr. Jones. Yes, of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side. (VI, H-55)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 05:50:10 PM by Gary Craig »

Offline Gary Craig

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Another take on ear witnesses.

"Of the 216 witnesses who were interviewed by the FBI or the Warren Commission, 73 of them were Dallas Police Officers, Dallas Deputy Sheriffs, Secret Service Agents and other government employees who traditionally tend to identify with the government?s case. Thus, the tabulation of 216 witnesses (culled from the Warren Commission?s 26 Volumes and from Commission Documents stored in the National Archives) does not constitute a random sample of the witnesses to the assassination. Hence, it cannot be the basis for an accurate statistical analysis of witness accounts. What happens if we separate out the 73 government employees from the 143 nongovernment employees?"

   143 Nongovernment Employees       73 Government Employees
              Depository 22                               Depository 26
                      Knoll 44                                        Knoll 8

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/Sort216Witness.htm

--------------------------------------

House Select Committee on Assassinations Final Report
Current Section:  Witness testimony on the shots


"An analysis by the committee of the statements of witnesses in Dealy Plaza on November 22, 1963, moreover, showed that about 44 percent were not able to form an opinion about the origin of the shots, attesting to the ambiguity showed in the August 1978 experiment. Seventy percent of the witnesses in 1963 who had an opinion as to the origin said it was either the book depository or the grassy knoll. Those witnesses who thought the shots originated from the grassy knoll represented 30 percent of those who chose between the knoll and book depository and 21 percent of those who made a decision as to origin. Since most of the shots fired on November 22, 1963 (three out of four, the committee determined) came from the book depository, the fact that so many witnesses thought they heard shots from
the knoll lent additional weight to a conclusion that a shot came from there."


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=800&relPageId=120

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Offline Gary Craig

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Gary, I could insert a big long list of people who said they heard three shots from the TSBD, as well, but that would be droll. Good job of inserting all that though. That must have been tedious. I do not dispute that people said they heard the shots from the TSBD or the Knoll, merely the "majority" part. If you relied, at all, on Josiah Thompson's work then you might want to rethink it. Here's the problem Gary. The vast "majority" of ear witnesses and eye witnesses at Dealy Plaza that day said they heard only (3) shots. And even authors like Thompson will tell you that. Depending on what source you cite most of the time the "majority" of witnesses claimed (3) whether they say from the TSBD or the Grassy Knoll or somewhere else. When you take into account the statements made by witnesses like Jarman, Norman, and Williams who were right below the 6th floor window and the witnesses who saw "a gunman" in the 6th floor window of the TSBD then the argument for the grassy knoll becomes more difficult. The original thread here, Lee is claiming more than (3) shots which is not supported by the "majority" of witnesses. Do you agree? How many shots do you think there were?  By the way, just a trivia note on Zapruder. When asked about where the shots were fired from, he said he assumed they came from behind him. When asked further if he had formed an opinion on the direction of the shots he said, "No there was too much reverberation. There was an echo which gave me a sound all over. In other words that square is kind of ---it had a sound all over." Interesting.

"When you take into account the statements made by witnesses like Jarman, Norman, and Williams who were right below the 6th floor window and the witnesses who saw "a gunman" in the 6th floor window of the TSBD then the argument for the grassy knoll becomes more difficult.


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=35&relPageId=304

Mr. Hargis: I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential Limousine.
Mr. Stern: Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. Hargis: Right.

"....Well at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't
anyway in the world I could tell where they were coming from but at the time there
was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the
 railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered with blood-I was just
a little back and left of-just a little back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know.
I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository. and these places
was the primary place that could have been shot from....

....I ran across the street looking over towards the railroad overpass and I remembered
seeing people scattering and running and then I looked--...

.....and then I looked over to the Texas School Book Depository Building, and no one that
was standing at the base of the building was--seemed to be looking up at the building or
anything like they knew where the shots were coming from
, so.....

.....Well, then, I thought since I had looked over at the Texas Book Depository and some
people looking out of the windows up there, didn't seem like they knew what was going on,
but none of them were looking towards or near anywhere the shots had been fired from
....."



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Offline Wesley Johnson

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"When you take into account the statements made by witnesses like Jarman, Norman, and Williams who were right below the 6th floor window and the witnesses who saw "a gunman" in the 6th floor window of the TSBD then the argument for the grassy knoll becomes more difficult.


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=35&relPageId=304

Mr. Hargis: I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential Limousine.
Mr. Stern: Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. Hargis: Right.

"....Well at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't
anyway in the world I could tell where they were coming from but at the time there
was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the
 railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered with blood-I was just
a little back and left of-just a little back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know.
I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository. and these places
was the primary place that could have been shot from....

....I ran across the street looking over towards the railroad overpass and I remembered
seeing people scattering and running and then I looked--...

.....and then I looked over to the Texas School Book Depository Building, and no one that
was standing at the base of the building was--seemed to be looking up at the building or
anything like they knew where the shots were coming from
, so.....

.....Well, then, I thought since I had looked over at the Texas Book Depository and some
people looking out of the windows up there, didn't seem like they knew what was going on,
but none of them were looking towards or near anywhere the shots had been fired from
....."


Gary, how many shots do you say were fired? Dr. Perry and Dr. Carrico both said, after they found out the autopsy results that the throat wound was probably an exit wound. Come on Gary, you seemed informed on the subject, so you know this.

Q. Where was the entrance wound?

Dr.Perry: There was an entrance wound in the neck, in regards the one on the
head, I cannot say.

Q. Which way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? At him?

Dr.Perry: It appeared to be coming at him.


-snip-

Q. Doctor, describe the entrance wound. You think from the front in the throat?

Dr.Perry: The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes,
that is correct.



Gary, you wrote in a previous post that you didn't say a shot came through the windshield and yet you are putting Dr. Perry's statement in here. You know that the fibers of the presidents jacket, shirt and tie were analyzed and the fibers were all pointing in the direction of the bullet which was consistent with a shot from the back. Now if you don't think a shot came through the windshield and hit the president's throat, yet you have inserted Dr. Perry's statement of the wound being an entrance wound, then tell me where the shooter was for that shot and where was the exit wound for that shot and if it didn't exit then where is the bullet? Now tell me where the exit wound for the wound to the president's back was and if it didn't exit then where is the bullet?

Offline Gary Craig

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Gary, how many shots do you say were fired? Dr. Perry and Dr. Carrico both said, after they found out the autopsy results that the throat wound was probably an exit wound. Come on Gary, you seemed informed on the subject, so you know this.

Q. Where was the entrance wound?

Dr.Perry: There was an entrance wound in the neck, in regards the one on the
head, I cannot say.

Q. Which way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? At him?

Dr.Perry: It appeared to be coming at him.


-snip-

Q. Doctor, describe the entrance wound. You think from the front in the throat?

Dr.Perry: The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes,
that is correct.



Gary, you wrote in a previous post that you didn't say a shot came through the windshield and yet you are putting Dr. Perry's statement in here. You know that the fibers of the presidents jacket, shirt and tie were analyzed and the fibers were all pointing in the direction of the bullet which was consistent with a shot from the back. Now if you don't think a shot came through the windshield and hit the president's throat, yet you have inserted Dr. Perry's statement of the wound being an entrance wound, then tell me where the shooter was for that shot and where was the exit wound for that shot and if it didn't exit then where is the bullet? Now tell me where the exit wound for the wound to the president's back was and if it didn't exit then where is the bullet?

Willis #5, the photo he said he took at the sound of the first shot, provides a great view.
A unobstructed shot from behind the picket fence on the knoll from the spot the HSCA said their acoustic tests said one was fired from.

And I just posted several witnesses who saw bullets hitting pavement.


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Offline Wesley Johnson

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"A unobstructed shot from behind the picket fence on the knoll from the spot the HSCA said their acoustic tests said one was fired from."

"And I just posted several witnesses who saw bullets hitting pavement."


Come on Gary, you are dodging the questions. You said, you didn't say a shot came from through the windshield. If a shot did hit the president from through the windshield, the angle from the knoll is all wrong. I've been there. It doesn't work Gary. The majority of the ear witnesses, (even from CT authors) claimed only three shots. Josiah Thompson said only (4) witnesses said more than three shots, no matter from what direction. Now, how many shots do you believe were fired? Do you believe a shot came through the windshield? If not, where was the shooter for the throat shot CT'ers claim? Where is the exit wound for that shot? Where was the shooter for that shot? If it didn't exit, then where is that bullet? If the president was shot from the front, then where is the exit wound for the wound in the presidents back? If the back wound did not exit, where is the bullet for that wound? These are straight forward questions Gary, and I don't need to copy and paste to answer them.