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Author Topic: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy  (Read 20074 times)

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2018, 12:11:54 AM »
You apparently are unaware of the two large bullet fragments recovered from the limo that were matched to Oswald's Carcano.

"Oswald's Carcano".  LOL.

And matched by a guy who lined up markings from the mutilated fragments in his mind, because they didn't line up under the microscope.  Fragments that had no documented chain of custody from Mills/Paterni to Frazier supposedly via Barlett and possibly Boring.  Who knows?  Who cares?  Can't even determine that these fragments ever went through a human body, but you just need to have faith.

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2018, 12:11:54 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2018, 03:12:32 AM »

One of the many interesting things about the witnesses to the JFK assassination is the evolving nature of many of their statements. Some witnesses originally made statements and even gave testimony which was opposite to the WC conclusions.  Then over time they began to think they were mistaken and came to accept they must have been wrong. This is not an indication of something necessarily sinister or conspiratorial. The Newman's and Sam Holland are good examples.

Lloyd, Someone else who quickly comes to mind is Mary Woodward. Her original statement places her in the Knoll column, but decades later she tried to explain that away.

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While there is indisputable evidence from dozens of witnesses to the assassination that they were threatened or intimidated in an effort to get them to change their statements,  still others appear to have changed their minds about what they saw and heard as a result of the psychological phenomena of cognitive dissonance.

Indisputable evidence? I think you're overselling that one. I'm aware of a few witnesses who have claimed to have been intimidated by law enforcement officers or Warren Commission staff members. I don't know of any evidence that would support any of their claims. But I'm certainly open to anything that you could provide.

One witness who, decades later, claimed to have been intimidated was Victoria Adams. According to Barry Ernest, she stated that she felt intimidated during her deposition and when she later reviewed and signed a copy of the transcript of the deposition. She also said that she was spooked by James Leavelle when he showed up at her door to interview her in Feb 1964. She claimed that he lied to her when explaining why he had to interview her when she had already been interviewed earlier. He allegedly told her that their records had been destroyed by a fire.

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Cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort or psychological stress that comes from simultaneously holding two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. The occurrence of cognitive dissonance is a consequence of performing an action which contradicts widely held beliefs, ideals or values; and also occurs when confronted with new information that contradicts previously beliefs, ideals, and values.

I don't believe I've ever seen it explained so clearly. Thank you.

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2018, 03:27:41 AM »
Tim,

Good advice. Doing ten at a time will make it much easier to both post and discuss/debate. 

One of the many interesting things about the witnesses to the JFK assassination is the evolving nature of many of their statements. Some witnesses originally made statements and even gave testimony which was opposite to the WC conclusions.  Then over time they began to think they were mistaken and came to accept they must have been wrong. This is not an indication of something necessarily sinister or conspiratorial. The Newman's and Sam Holland are good examples.

While there is indisputable evidence from dozens of witnesses to the assassination that they were threatened or intimidated in an effort to get them to change their statements,  still others appear to have changed their minds about what they saw and heard as a result of the psychological phenomena of cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort or psychological stress that comes from simultaneously holding two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. The occurrence of cognitive dissonance is a consequence of performing an action which contradicts widely held beliefs, ideals or values; and also occurs when confronted with new information that contradicts previously beliefs, ideals, and values.

Quote
Cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort or psychological stress that comes from simultaneously holding two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. The occurrence of cognitive dissonance is a consequence of performing an action which contradicts widely held beliefs, ideals or values; and also occurs when confronted with new information that contradicts previously beliefs, ideals, and values.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Btw it's always a good idea to provide a citation for stuff you rip off the internet. Naughty naughty!



JohnM
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 03:47:06 AM by John Mytton »

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2018, 03:27:41 AM »


Offline Lloyd Morris

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2018, 09:44:53 AM »
Lloyd,

Someone else who quickly comes to mind is Mary Woodward. Her original statement places her in the Knoll column, but decades later she tried to explain that away.

You are exactly right about Mary Woodward. She may be one of the best examples of cognitive dissonance among the ear and eye witnesses to the assassination. There are those who see darker forces behind fact that after thirty years of saying one thing, she reversed herself and agreed with the WC and FBI that the shots came from the TSBD instead of behind her near the grassy knoll. However she has repeatedly made it clear no one threatened or intimated her into changing her opinion.

Another simple and commonly accepted definition of cognitive dissonance is the mental stress resulting from the inability to hold two opposite thoughts or ideas in your mind at the same time. It seems far more likely Mary Woodward, after nearly three decades of swimming against the tide, chose to reduce two conflicting thoughts and settled on the government's official version of where the shots came from in the TSBD.

In a nutshell, Leon Festinger who first defined and wrote about cognitive dissonance, believed people will eventually choose to evaluate their opinions over time by comparing and contrasting them with those of others. Reading the statements of Mary Woodward explaining how she came to a different conclusion, cognitive dissonance and the need for closure makes a lot more sense than thinking fear and threats from some unknown source caused her to change her mind.

The fact that Mary Woodward changed her mind about the location of the source of the shots doesn't in my mind take any credibility away from her original statements and impressions of the assassination.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 10:00:56 AM by Lloyd Morris »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2018, 10:06:24 AM »
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,216.0.html

Other psycological phenomena that may be considered.....

And the famous case in the RFK assassination.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 01:05:01 PM by Colin Crow »

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2018, 10:06:24 AM »


Offline Lloyd Morris

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2018, 04:33:06 PM »
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,216.0.html

Other psycological phenomena that may be considered.....

And the famous case in the RFK assassination.


Colin,

Thanks for posting these links. You bring up a very good point with this.

In Mary Woodward's case, I think her change of opinion after 30 years as to the location of source
of the shots can likely be attributed to cognitive dissonance. This is just one statement she made about
the pressure and backlash resulting from her original statement where she said “…After acknowledging
our cheers he [President Kennedy] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to our right."
[the grassy knoll area]

"I was labeled 'the first dissenting witness.' Others claimed that my clarification was made under pressure by everyone from my bosses at the newspaper to Dallas city fathers to the FBI. I was sickened to read that my words had been used as evidence in a book claiming that Kennedy had been killed by the Secret Service agent who was driving his car.

I have been called a _______ who sold out (to whom or for how much was never revealed) and a disgrace to my profession. The twisting of my words, the questioning of my motives and the assault on my integrity were unexpected, bewildering and hurtful. I learned that the best defense was a low profile. Since then, I have given three presentations: to my child’s junior high history class, to my local historical society and at a seminar that was hosted by Southern Methodist University on the 30th anniversary. I have written three or four articles on the subject for newspapers at which I later worked, and I appeared briefly in two documentaries. I have never received compensation."


In other interviews Mary Woodward [now Pillsworth] actually talks about wanting closure and making peace with this issue and how many of her friends and family [none of whom were witnesses to the assassination] say the shots must have come from the TSBD.

This is not to say other witnesses were not influenced [essentially conditioned to doubt their own eyes and ears] both directly by interactions with DPD, FBI and Warren Commission representatives and indirectly by mass media. You also do not have to believe individuals like Judyth Vary Baker who said LHO told her he had been trained in government mind control programs to know that our government was heavily involved in widespread, long term behavioral conditioning programs like MKUltra and MKDelta.  The government has admitted this and a lot more this beginning in 1975 in the Church Committee Hearings.

If you believe multiple shooters firing from different locations from around Dealy Plaza killed President Kennedy and also believe the US Government was involved before, during and after the event, then the assassination was essentially an intelligence operation. The use of effective and well documented psychological conditioning by the government against dissenting witnesses would not be unthinkable but rather expected.

According to information brought out in the Church Committee hearings and under the FOI Act, MKUltra was devised and funded by the CIA under Allen Dulles beginning in 1953.  The same Allen Dulles who was fired by JFK and put on the Warren Commission by LBJ. These and other CIA behavior control programs were closely associated with and overseen by the same people [like Allen Dulles and James Jesus Angleton] who ran the CIA's regime change operations. [the intelligence communities euphemism for assassination of foreign leaders] .


 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 05:23:21 PM by Lloyd Morris »

Paul McBrearty

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2018, 06:57:01 PM »
Amazing how people are so obsessed by this that they have nothing else to do with their lives only log in here 24-7 posting nonsense post after nonsense post. Do you people ever think about nothing else or talk about nothing else. This case was solved in 1963 - 64. Oswald the psychopath and cold blooded killer killed JFK all by himself. A blood thirsty malcontent murderer who had a taste for killing political figures. That's all there is to it. Now that's that.

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2018, 06:57:01 PM »


Offline Lee Wotton

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2018, 07:03:21 PM »
You can draw as many pie charts as you like John but look at my OP and dispute the points made about bullet holes, injuries etc.  These events point to double the number of shells in the TSBD and at least 2 directions of fire.

How does a bullet go in JFK's throat and not come out but was fired from behind?

How does a bullet fired from behind in a downward trajectory hit JFK near he right shoulder and come out his throat.  The throat was announced as an entrance wound remember.

How does a magic bullet cause all those injuries and lose less than 3 grains in weight and appear almost pristine in condition?

Why was the magic bullet planted?  Because on the day the MC didn't fire a single shot so it had to be planted.

How does a bullet go through the windscreen fired in a downward trajectory?

Carry on with your colour pie charts John preferably on someone's post that actually gives a **** about what you think. Your reputation goes before you.

Tim all yo say was blown out the water and dismissed many years ago mate.  Wake up

Offline Lee Wotton

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2018, 07:04:51 PM »
I think you just described yourself

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2018, 07:04:51 PM »


Offline Lee Wotton

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2018, 07:33:53 PM »
Throat shot from the front though the windscreen which reduced its energy

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2017/10/26/20171027_jfkpara3.jpg

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Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2018, 07:33:53 PM »