Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: Dallas Police Crime Lab  (Read 1069 times)

Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
Dallas Police Crime Lab
« on: November 07, 2019, 03:20:40 PM »
The words of DPD Crime Lab Detective R.W. (Rusty) Livingston:

"JFK First Day Evidence" by Gary Savage, pages 77-78

"... I am sure that Lieutenant Day, who was in charge of the Crime Lab, dusted the rifle that was found on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, and lifted a partial palm print off the underside of the barrel after the rifle was taken apart. They had the actual print there in the office that night [11/22/63]. I compared it myself with Oswald's palm print, and it looked to me like there was enough there to say yes, it was Oswald's palm print." ... "That happened all the time," he told me. "After we had made a comparison and felt as though we had a match, if someone else was in the office, they'd usually take a look too and help to verify the match."

Additional words by Gary Savage (pages 79-80):

...Today some assassination researchers do not believe that Lieutenant Day actually did lift the palm print of Oswald frim the rifle. He did, however, and most, if not all, other Crime Lab Officers saw and compared the palm print themselves, including Rusty, Pete Barnes, H. R. Williams, and Bobby Brown. Ample opportunity to compare the palm print lifted from the rifle existed since it remained in the Crime Lab Office for several days, and each officer recalled the lift and had no doubt that it was Oswald's.

Bobby Brown told Rusty and me that he remembered looking at the palm print lifted by Lieutenant Day. He stated that there was no doubt that it was Oswald's palm print and said he looked at the palm print the day after the shooting. His scheduled hours for work on Saturday were from 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. Brown said that he didn't come in on the day of the assassination.




Does anyone here know of any words (quotations or otherwise) by any of the Dallas Police Crime Lab officers that would either confirm or contradict this?

JFK Assassination Forum

Dallas Police Crime Lab
« on: November 07, 2019, 03:20:40 PM »

Offline Gary Craig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 617
Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2019, 05:32:27 PM »
If they had Ozzie's print on the murder weapon on the 22nd why is JEH telling the POTUS on the 23rd that the case against LHO isn't strong enough to get a conviction?

11/23/63
J. Edgar Hoover: I just wanted to let you know of a development which I think is very important in connection with this case -
this man in Dallas (Lee Harvey Oswald). We, of course, charged him with the murder of the President. The evidence that they
have at the present time is not very, very strong.
We have just discovered the place where the gun was purchased and the shipment
of the gun from Chicago to Dallas, to a post office box in Dallas, to a man - no, to a woman by the name of "A. Hidell."... We
had it flown up last night, and our laboratory here is making an examination of it.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Yes, I told the Secret Service to see that that got taken care of.

J. Edgar Hoover: That's right. We have the gun and we have the bullet. There was only one full bullet that was found. That was on
the stretcher that the President was on. It apparently had fallen out when they massaged his heart, and we have that one. We have
what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification. As soon as we finish the testing of the gun for fingerprints
... we will then be able to test the one bullet we have with the gun. But the important thing is that this gun was bought in Chicago
on a money order. Cost twenty-one dollars, and it seems almost impossible to think that for twenty-one dollars you could kill the
President of the United States.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Now, who is A. Hidell?

J. Edgar Hoover: A. Hidell is an alias that this man has used on other occasions, and according to the information we have from the
house in which he was living - his mother - he kept a rifle like this wrapped up in a blanket which he kept in the house. On the
morning that this incident occurred down there - yesterday - the man who drove him to the building where they work, the building from
where the shots came, said that he had a package wrapped up in paper... But the important thing at the time is that the location of
the purchase of the gun by a money order apparently to the Klein Gun Company in Chicago - we were able to establish that last night.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?

J. Edgar Hoover: No, that's one angle that's very confusing, for this reason - we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man
who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald's name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man's voice, nor to his
appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there. We do have a copy of a
letter which was written by Oswald to the Soviet embassy here in Washington, inquiring as well as complaining about the harassment of
his wife and the questioning of his wife by the FBI. Now, of course, that letter information - we process all mail that goes to the
Soviet embassy. It's a very secret operation. No mail is delivered to the embassy without being examined and opened by us, so that we
know what they receive... The case, as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction... Now if we can identify this
man who was at the... Soviet embassy in Mexico City... This man Oswald has still denied everything. He doesn't know anything about anything,
but the gun thing, of course, is a definite trend.


And on the 29th he's telling LBJ they may be able to get Marina to cooperate if they promise to let her stay in the country.

11/29/63
Lyndon B. Johnson: That there is no connection between he and Ruby that you can detect now. And whether he was connected with the
Cuban operation with money, you're trying to...

J. Edgar Hoover: That's what we're trying to nail down now, because he was strongly pro-Castro, he was strongly anti-American, and
he had been in correspondence, which we have, with the Soviet embassy here in Washington and with the American Civil Liberties Union
and with this Committee for Fair Play to Cuba... None of those letters, however, dealt with any indication of violence or contemplated
assassination. They were dealing with the matter of a visa for his wife to go back to Russia. Now there is one angle to this thing that
I'm hopeful to get some word on today This woman, his wife, had been very hostile. She would not cooperate, speaks... Russian only. She
did say to us yesterday down there that if we could give her assurance that she would be allowed to remain in this country, she might
cooperate. I told our agents down there to give her that assurance... and I sent a Russian-speaking agent into Dallas last night to
interview her.... Whether she knows anything or talks anything, I, of course, don't know and won't know till -



Online John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6769
Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2019, 05:35:35 PM »
If they had Ozzie's print on the murder weapon on the 22nd why is JEH telling the POTUS on the 23rd that the case against LHO isn't strong enough to get a conviction?

Because Day "forgot" to tell the FBI about the magic partial palmprint.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2019, 05:35:35 PM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3581
Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2019, 07:16:31 PM »
If they had Ozzie's print on the murder weapon on the 22nd why is JEH telling the POTUS on the 23rd that the case against LHO isn't strong enough to get a conviction?

11/23/63
J. Edgar Hoover: I just wanted to let you know of a development which I think is very important in connection with this case -
this man in Dallas (Lee Harvey Oswald). We, of course, charged him with the murder of the President. The evidence that they
have at the present time is not very, very strong.
We have just discovered the place where the gun was purchased and the shipment
of the gun from Chicago to Dallas, to a post office box in Dallas, to a man - no, to a woman by the name of "A. Hidell."... We
had it flown up last night, and our laboratory here is making an examination of it.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Yes, I told the Secret Service to see that that got taken care of.

J. Edgar Hoover: That's right. We have the gun and we have the bullet. There was only one full bullet that was found. That was on
the stretcher that the President was on. It apparently had fallen out when they massaged his heart, and we have that one. We have
what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification. As soon as we finish the testing of the gun for fingerprints
... we will then be able to test the one bullet we have with the gun. But the important thing is that this gun was bought in Chicago
on a money order. Cost twenty-one dollars, and it seems almost impossible to think that for twenty-one dollars you could kill the
President of the United States.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Now, who is A. Hidell?

J. Edgar Hoover: A. Hidell is an alias that this man has used on other occasions, and according to the information we have from the
house in which he was living - his mother - he kept a rifle like this wrapped up in a blanket which he kept in the house. On the
morning that this incident occurred down there - yesterday - the man who drove him to the building where they work, the building from
where the shots came, said that he had a package wrapped up in paper... But the important thing at the time is that the location of
the purchase of the gun by a money order apparently to the Klein Gun Company in Chicago - we were able to establish that last night.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?

J. Edgar Hoover: No, that's one angle that's very confusing, for this reason - we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man
who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald's name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man's voice, nor to his
appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there. We do have a copy of a
letter which was written by Oswald to the Soviet embassy here in Washington, inquiring as well as complaining about the harassment of
his wife and the questioning of his wife by the FBI. Now, of course, that letter information - we process all mail that goes to the
Soviet embassy. It's a very secret operation. No mail is delivered to the embassy without being examined and opened by us, so that we
know what they receive... The case, as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction... Now if we can identify this
man who was at the... Soviet embassy in Mexico City... This man Oswald has still denied everything. He doesn't know anything about anything,
but the gun thing, of course, is a definite trend.


And on the 29th he's telling LBJ they may be able to get Marina to cooperate if they promise to let her stay in the country.

11/29/63
Lyndon B. Johnson: That there is no connection between he and Ruby that you can detect now. And whether he was connected with the
Cuban operation with money, you're trying to...

J. Edgar Hoover: That's what we're trying to nail down now, because he was strongly pro-Castro, he was strongly anti-American, and
he had been in correspondence, which we have, with the Soviet embassy here in Washington and with the American Civil Liberties Union
and with this Committee for Fair Play to Cuba... None of those letters, however, dealt with any indication of violence or contemplated
assassination. They were dealing with the matter of a visa for his wife to go back to Russia. Now there is one angle to this thing that
I'm hopeful to get some word on today This woman, his wife, had been very hostile. She would not cooperate, speaks... Russian only. She
did say to us yesterday down there that if we could give her assurance that she would be allowed to remain in this country, she might
cooperate. I told our agents down there to give her that assurance... and I sent a Russian-speaking agent into Dallas last night to
interview her.... Whether she knows anything or talks anything, I, of course, don't know and won't know till -

Gary, you're one of the best!.....  I have never seen you post BS.... You post factual information.

J. Edgar Hoover:[/b] That's right. We have the gun and we have the bullet. There was only one full bullet that was found. That was on
the stretcher that the President was on. It apparently had fallen out when they massaged his heart, and we have that one. We have
what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification.

We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification.

There are LNer's who actually believe that the "slivers" ( fragments) that were found in the car are useful in determining if they were fired from a specific gun.   Those Lner's are often called simpletons .....

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3581
Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2019, 07:42:09 PM »
The words of DPD Crime Lab Detective R.W. (Rusty) Livingston:

"JFK First Day Evidence" by Gary Savage, pages 77-78

"... I am sure that Lieutenant Day, who was in charge of the Crime Lab, dusted the rifle that was found on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, and lifted a partial palm print off the underside of the barrel after the rifle was taken apart. They had the actual print there in the office that night [11/22/63]. I compared it myself with Oswald's palm print, and it looked to me like there was enough there to say yes, it was Oswald's palm print." ... "That happened all the time," he told me. "After we had made a comparison and felt as though we had a match, if someone else was in the office, they'd usually take a look too and help to verify the match."

Additional words by Gary Savage (pages 79-80):

...Today some assassination researchers do not believe that Lieutenant Day actually did lift the palm print of Oswald frim the rifle. He did, however, and most, if not all, other Crime Lab Officers saw and compared the palm print themselves, including Rusty, Pete Barnes, H. R. Williams, and Bobby Brown. Ample opportunity to compare the palm print lifted from the rifle existed since it remained in the Crime Lab Office for several days, and each officer recalled the lift and had no doubt that it was Oswald's.

Bobby Brown told Rusty and me that he remembered looking at the palm print lifted by Lieutenant Day. He stated that there was no doubt that it was Oswald's palm print and said he looked at the palm print the day after the shooting. His scheduled hours for work on Saturday were from 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. Brown said that he didn't come in on the day of the assassination.




Does anyone here know of any words (quotations or otherwise) by any of the Dallas Police Crime Lab officers that would either confirm or contradict this?

I am sure that Lieutenant Day, who was in charge of the Crime Lab, dusted the rifle that was found on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, and lifted a partial palm print off the underside of the barrel after the rifle was taken apart. They had the actual print there in the office that night [11/22/63]. I compared it myself with Oswald's palm print, and it looked to me like there was enough there to say yes, it was Oswald's palm print."

Yes, Lt Day did dust the rifle for prints.  We have the Tom Alye's video of Lt Day dusting the rifle by the sunlit window in the NW corner of the sixth floor of the TSBD.....    And we know that Day found some prints ( or what he thought was a print) because Alyea saw him lift the print with cellophane tape.   ( Alyea said he filmed Day as he lifted the print and placed it on a small white card)

Savage says ...."I compared it myself with Oswald's palm print, and it looked to me like there was enough there to say yes, it was Oswald's palm print."

Really??!!....  A palm print allegedly lifted from a 5/8 inch diameter barrel ( the size of a AA penlight battery) ....  A print on a metal tube of 5/8 " would not be identifiable by an amateur or for that matter probably not even a trained finger print man.    However I don't doubt that Savage really believes that he saw the print that Day said he found on that small diameter barrel....  But IMO what Savage saw (and what we've all seen ) is Lee Oswald's print that was lifted from a FLAT SURFACE and placed on that small white card.   The print on the card shows no sign of distortion that would be apparent if the print had been lifted from a small round surface.    We know that the print covers about 3/4 of an inch of the 1 inch wide cellophane tape ....3/4 of an inch would be nearly half way around the barrel of the carcano.   How could any person deposit a palm print on the small round tube without distorting the print ???

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2019, 07:42:09 PM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3581
Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2019, 07:50:47 PM »
Because Day "forgot" to tell the FBI about the magic partial palmprint.

Or maybe the so called print was non existent at the time that FBI agent Drain received the card on 11/22/63....  Day had lifted what he imagined to be a palm print on the wooden foregrip of the rifle just after he pulled the rifle from beneath the pallet that was 15 feet 4 inches from the North wall.  Tom Alyea said that he filmed Day as he lifted the print with cellophane tape.    But when Day got back to the lab he realized that what he imagined to be a print was nothing but an unidentifiable smudge. But the FBI wanted all of the evidence, so he included the 3 X 5 card  and sent it along with the other evidence.

Online Jack Trojan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 572
Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2019, 08:12:07 PM »
Considering how incompetent the DPD were, Fritz had the case "cinched" in record time.


The DPD also forwarded all that "cinched" investigatory info to Hoover in less than 24 hours, so he could spitball with Johnson over how, "The case, as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction."

Hoover and Johnson sure knew a lot about Oswald, based on less than 24 hrs of sleuthing. That must be some kinda record, especially for the Keystone Cops DPD. Fritz even staged the crime scene to speed things up.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2019, 08:12:07 PM »

Online John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6769
Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2019, 08:21:23 PM »
Or maybe the so called print was non existent at the time that FBI agent Drain received the card on 11/22/63....  Day had lifted what he imagined to be a palm print on the wooden foregrip of the rifle just after he pulled the rifle from beneath the pallet that was 15 feet 4 inches from the North wall.  Tom Alyea said that he filmed Day as he lifted the print with cellophane tape.    But when Day got back to the lab he realized that what he imagined to be a print was nothing but an unidentifiable smudge. But the FBI wanted all of the evidence, so he included the 3 X 5 card  and sent it along with the other evidence.

Cool fabrication, bro.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2019, 08:21:23 PM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3581
Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2019, 08:31:34 PM »
Cool fabrication, bro.

Fabricated (constructed) from FACTS.....

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3581
Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2019, 08:52:45 PM »
Considering how incompetent the DPD were, Fritz had the case "cinched" in record time.


The DPD also forwarded all that "cinched" investigatory info to Hoover in less than 24 hours, so he could spitball with Johnson over how, "The case, as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction."

Hoover and Johnson sure knew a lot about Oswald, based on less than 24 hrs of sleuthing. That must be some kinda record, especially for the Keystone Cops DPD. Fritz even staged the crime scene to speed things up.


Fritz told the reporters that Lee got on  a bus then left the bus and caught a cab home ( the roominghouse) where he changed his clothes and then went to the movies, where he was encountered by Officer Tippit and Oswald shot him.   

This was a live report from "probably the most astute detective in the entire Southwest"...   LOL!

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Dallas Police Crime Lab
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2019, 08:52:45 PM »

 

Mobile View