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Author Topic: Tippit Shooting, 1:15  (Read 84264 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #560 on: November 20, 2019, 06:55:19 PM »
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Strawman fallacy.  I didn't say there will never ever ever be a fair lineup.  These lineups were biased and unfair.

- Fillers should generally resemble each other and the suspect
- Fillers and the suspect should be dressed alike
- Fillers should resemble the witness's pre-lineup description of the suspect
- There should be a minimum of 5 fillers
- The person administering the lineup should not know who the suspect is
- If the suspect has an unusual or unique feature that would make him stand out then it should be concealed, or the fillers should have the same thing artificially added
- Witnesses should not attend lineups together
- The witness should not be visible to the suspect or fillers
- The suspect's position in each lineup should be randomly placed
- Witnesses should be told that the suspect may or may not be in the lineup
- Witnesses should be asked how certain they are of the identification
- Witnesses should not have been biased by media reports prior to the lineup
- Witnesses shouldn't be pressured to make a selection

https://www.ncjrs.gov/nij/eyewitness/eyewitness_id.html

"Didn't look like he could be intimidated".  There's a scientific analysis for you.   :D

But what does being intimidated have to do with anything?

Who ever said that anyone was wanting to "send a man wrongfully to his death"?

"Major" as defined as something other than what the police actually did.

Considering?  Wasn't that what they were supposedly trying to investigate with these rigged lineups?

LOL

Exactly.  They railroaded him, because they decided first that he killed a cop, and then rigged lineups to give them the answer that they wanted.

All fillers shall have plastic surgery to look exactly like Oswald.
No fillers shall wear a wedding ring
All fillers shall look effeminate
All fillers shall have cold dead eyes
All fillers shall have a twisted-arse walk
All fillers shall learn to mutter-- twice-- 'poor dumb cop'
All fillers shall effect the look of a loser.
All fillers shall effect a permanent smirk

And all fillers must be able to make The Divine Miss M get cold chills

PS: Once again, JudgeJohnny, thanks so much for your always-useful posts

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #560 on: November 20, 2019, 06:55:19 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #561 on: November 20, 2019, 06:56:39 PM »
I am searching for the source. If I find it I will post it.

The point I was making was to dispute Walt's apparent miss-association of the "Victory" model name exclusively with the .38 S&W caliber. This is what wikipedia has to say:

The Victory Model was used by United States forces during World War II, being chambered in the well-known and popular .38 Special cartridge. The Victory Model was a standard-issue sidearm for United States Navy and Marine Corps aircrews, and was also used by security guards at factories and defense installations throughout the United States during the war.

The S&W M&P military revolvers produced from 1942 to 1944 had serial numbers with a "V" prefix, and were known as the Smith & Wesson Victory Model. It is noteworthy that early Victory Models did not always have the V prefix. During World War II over 570,000 of these pistols were supplied to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa under the Lend-Lease program, chambered in the British .38/200 caliber already in use in the Enfield No 2 Mk I Revolver and the Webley Mk IV Revolver. Most Victory Models sent to Britain were fitted with 4-inch or 5-inch barrels, although a few early versions had 6-inch barrels.
During World War II over 570,000 of these pistols were supplied to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa under the Lend-Lease program, chambered in the British .38/200 caliber

I'm no expert on S&W revolvers, but I believe that the old S&W revolver that magically appeared at the Texas Theater was one of those 570, 000 pistols that had been sent overseas to an ally during WWII.

But that's unimportant....  The point is.....The Killer was witnessed walking away after shooting Tippit and he was removing ONE - SHELL- AT-  A- TIME as he walked away.    The spent shells from an S&W are NOT removed ONE - AT- A- TIME.....Cunningham  demonstrated how the spent shells are removed from the old S&W that magically appeared at the Texas Theater. 

Offline Jack Trojan

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #562 on: November 20, 2019, 06:59:22 PM »
That's a probability argument. Touching a small area like the trigger or a shell probably would leave a smudged print, if any. The finger leaving off the trigger would "wipe" any print there, as would pushing a shell forward between fingers into a revolver. There's also the factor that fingers don't constantly and consistently cast off prints anyway. Sometimes the fingers are dry due to touching something absorbent or purposely wiping or washing them.

Someone needs to load a S&W from scratch and test your hypothesis. Oswald must have only touched the rim of the casings not to leave even a smeared print on at least one of them. Otherwise, Oswald would have taken great care not to put his prints on them or the gun.

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Police seldom see latent fingerprints on a spent shell due to heat vaporizing the oils. We went over on the Forum a while ago the new technique that would be able to detect "micro-etched fingerprints", prints that aren't visible but have left a thin residual mark due to heat. But some studies intentionally placed strong fingerprints on the hulls before firing, which improved the detection results. Still on the off-chance there might be some prints on the hulls in the JFK case, then they'll hopefully be tested when the science is truly ready.

If there was any hint of prints on the hulls, smeared or otherwise, we would have heard about it by now.

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Some materials resist printing. I think the rifle's wood stock was like that, in that it was absorbent. The triggerguard housing was smooth metal, almost perfect for a print to be deposited. Without getting into the arguments for-and-against, some believe Oswald's prints were photographed on the housing.

Oswald's alleged palm print was discovered on the barrel under the stock by Day after he disassembled the rifle. But I'm still waiting to see the expert analysis that matches this print to Oswald. Supposedly, there were several detectives/laymen who eyeballed the faded print and declared it a match to the palm print taken from Oswald post-mortem. Those were some eagle-eyed cops to pull that off.

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Fingerprint evidence is always highlighted on TV shows but real-life court cases usually don't have much, if any, in the way of fingerprint evidence. Often the weapon is wiped down or the prints are smudged or the surface of the weapon isn't receptive to prints. Or the killer wore gloves. The Golden State Killer apparently left no prints, only one trace of DNA.

But nobody thinks that Oswald wore gloves and he allegedly man-handled the MC by disassembling it, placing it in a paper bag (wonky scope included), reassembled it in the TSBD, fired it at least 3 times, ditched it and only left one questionable partial palm print on the barrel and no other prints on the stock, bolt, scope, strap, clip and ammo. The most likely scenario to leave virtually no prints on the MC, was that the shooter wore gloves. Otherwise, there is no way Oswald would have or could have wiped the MC down before fleeing the scene.

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #562 on: November 20, 2019, 06:59:22 PM »


Offline Jack Trojan

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #563 on: November 20, 2019, 07:06:44 PM »
Up until recently the chances of taking prints off a spent shell was practically impossible but the bullet recovered from within the rifle could have a print that is if Oswald wasn't wearing gloves or he didn't smear the print.

JohnM

I guess that's why Fritz thought it was ok to pick up the hulls with his bare hands and later toss them back onto the floor for a staged photo of the crime scene. Fritz assumed that Oswald didn't leave any prints on them, right?

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #564 on: November 20, 2019, 07:14:59 PM »
You don't know what gun killed Tippit.

But I'm curious.  What is your source for the claim that Seaport Traders did the rechambering of CE 143?

Okay, I think I found the source of what I had read before making that assertion. Here is a quote from a Dale Myers webpage:

The .38 Smith & Wesson revolver used in the Tippit murder was originally purchased by Seaport Traders from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., on October 13, 1962. Seaport Traders received it on January 3, 1963 and had it modified. [30]

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/08/oswalds-mail-order-revolver-purchase.html

footnote [30]: 7H375

If you read the testimony of Mr. Michaelis, he states the actual modifications were done for them by a Mr. M.L. Johnson of 13440 Burbank Boulevard, Van Nuys, California.


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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #564 on: November 20, 2019, 07:14:59 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #565 on: November 20, 2019, 07:16:35 PM »
This is a go nowhere argument, it's easy from the defence's perspective to flippantly say that there will never ever ever be a fair lineup because in reality there will always be another endless reason why the current lineups were unfair for example, there should be more people in the lineup, the light was different, the distance was different, their skin colours must be closer, the hair colour and hairline must be the same, they weren't the same shape, their nationalities and race didn't go back to their grandparents etc etc... So it's good and all that you believe that you can get all the positive identifications thrown out on some form of technicality by screaming "unfair" unfair" but that's not how it works, you have to deal with the eyewitnesses like Callaway the ex-marine who saw Oswald with a weapon and didn't look like he could be intimidated.



It's not only me John, I know no one in my family would ever send a man wrongfully to his death and I'm betting that you and your family couldn't either.

When you show the Police did something major to deliberately penalise Oswald then they may be a problem but considering that Oswald killed one of their own and was found with the weapon, then on the whole the Dallas Police were quite restrained because I know if someone killed my friend I would have trouble holding back.



JohnM

Wasn't it Callaway who took it upon himself to stand the same 56' distance away from the lineup that he saw Oswald from on the street? It seems any defence lawyer would have demanded a field trip to have witnesses view Oswald (& fillers) from the distances they saw him on the street.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 07:17:49 PM by Bill Chapman »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #566 on: November 20, 2019, 07:23:08 PM »
During World War II over 570,000 of these pistols were supplied to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa under the Lend-Lease program, chambered in the British .38/200 caliber

I'm no expert on S&W revolvers, but I believe that the old S&W revolver that magically appeared at the Texas Theater was one of those 570, 000 pistols that had been sent overseas to an ally during WWII.

But that's unimportant....  The point is.....The Killer was witnessed walking away after shooting Tippit and he was removing ONE - SHELL- AT-  A- TIME as he walked away.    The spent shells from an S&W are NOT removed ONE - AT- A- TIME.....Cunningham  demonstrated how the spent shells are removed from the old S&W that magically appeared at the Texas Theater.


I'm no expert on S&W revolvers, but I believe that the old S&W revolver that magically appeared at the Texas Theater was one of those 570, 000 pistols that had been sent overseas to an ally during WWII.

Well, Smith and Wesson will provide certification of the details for a fee if requested. But after further research, I am getting a clearer picture of the origin of the pistol and I think you are probably correct with regards to the overseas group of pistols. It appears to me that, Seaport Traders purchased a case of (probably) these and modified some of them.

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #566 on: November 20, 2019, 07:23:08 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #567 on: November 20, 2019, 07:35:32 PM »
Wasn't it Callaway who took it upon himself to stand the same 56' distance away from the lineup that he saw Oswald from on the street?

Well according to Bill "TypoSuck" Chapman, it was 12-15 feet.