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Author Topic: Tippit Shooting, 1:15  (Read 84186 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #176 on: October 23, 2019, 08:30:08 PM »
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John, You're simply an ornery contrarian .....  Why the hell would you insist that a poster prove that there was only one man involved in the shooting of Tippit...

Virtually ALL of the witnesses said that there was only the one man shooting.

Not exactly. Some witnesses ID'd Oswald at the Tippit scene during the shooting, and others ID'd him nearby shortly after.

Poor dumb cop, eh...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 08:44:16 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #176 on: October 23, 2019, 08:30:08 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #177 on: October 23, 2019, 08:35:25 PM »
Well, for one thing, at least two witnesses reported seeing two men, and/or an extra police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E 10th.

Only one witness claimed to see anybody shooting.  Guys standing halfway down Patton street just saw a guy "trotting".  How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?

 at least two witnesses reported seeing two men, and/or an extra police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E 10th.

OK ....Let's go with the percentage.....  80% of the witnesses reported only one man was the shooter.....

How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?  They saw the gun in his hands.....  How many men were at the scene or trotting up Patton carrying a gun?


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #178 on: October 23, 2019, 08:39:19 PM »
Well, for one thing, at least two witnesses reported seeing two men, and/or an extra police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E 10th.

Only one witness claimed to see anybody shooting.  Guys standing halfway down Patton street just saw a guy "trotting".  How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?

Why would they need to know what anybody else saw. They ID'd Oswald as the guy they saw.

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #178 on: October 23, 2019, 08:39:19 PM »


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #179 on: October 23, 2019, 08:50:09 PM »
Why would they need to know what anybody else saw. They ID'd Oswald as the guy they saw.

from
"VINNIE IT IS ROUND"
by Mark Lane


                     "The Commission claimed that Mrs. Markham identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man who shot
the policeman at a line up on November 22 and that in testimony before the Commission, Mrs. Markham confirmed her
positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald as the man she saw kill Officer Tippit. Captain Fritz - who needed that
identification real quickly -- testified that the lineup was hurriedly arranged at 4:30 that afternoon, less than three
and a half hours after Tippit's death and less than that after Oswald's arrest. Mrs Markham was "quite hysterical"
when she arrived at police headquarters. Her state and the atmosphere in the lineup room are best described by the
record of her testimony."


Q: Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Markham: Yes , sir.

Q: Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Markham: No, sir

Q: You did not? Did you see anybody-I have asked you that question before-did you recognize anybody from their face?

          "Counsel wished to remind Mrs. Markham that when he had prepared her for her testimony, before
a record of her answers was made, the matter had been discussed. To prepare a witness for testimony may
be acceptable where adversary and hostile cross-examination is expected, and it is also a legitimate way of
preventing repetition and irrelevant conjecture. The record of the Warren Commission, however, reveals no
such cross-examination and was burdened to such a degree by repetition and irrelevance that the initial
preparation seems to have been for the purpose of leading the witness to give an appropiate answer."


Markham: From their face, no.

Q: Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Markham: I didn't know nobody.

Q: I know you didn't know nobody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Markham: No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No one of them.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No, sir.

        "At this point counsel, a teacher of criminal law and procedure at the University of Southern California and
a member of the U.S. Judical Conference Advisory Committee on Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, asked a
rather leading question. Mrs. Markham said that she recognized no one at the lineup; counsel tried five times for a
more acceptable answer. Then, departing a little from the legal procedure he teaches, he next asked his friendly but
disconcerting witness, "Was there a number two man in there?" Mrs. Markham replied, "Number two is the one I
picked." Counsel began another question: "I thought you just told me that you hadn't, but Mrs. Markham interrupted
to answer inexplicably, "I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing."


Counsel then inquired:

Q: You recognized him from his appearance?

Markham: I asked-I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.

        "A mystical identification at best. However, the Commission was satisfied that its lawyer had at last
obtained the right answer: "Addressing itself solely to the probative value of Mrs. Markham's contemporaneous
discription of the gunman and her identification of Oswald at a police lineup, the Commission considers her
testimony reliable."


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Testimony Of Domingo Benavides

Mr. BELIN - Where were you when your vehicle stopped?
Mr. BENAVIDES - About 15 foot, just directly across the street and maybe a car length away from the police car.

~snip~

Mr. Belin: Let me ask you now, I would like you to relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now.

Mr. Benavides: As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired he had just turned. He was just turning away........

~snip~

Mr. BENAVIDES - I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off. and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look fiat in back.

~snip~

A photo below of Ozzie in custody the same day Benavides observed and described Tippit's killer.
He's obviously not the person he saw at murder scene.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #180 on: October 23, 2019, 09:07:56 PM »
from
"VINNIE IT IS ROUND"
by Mark Lane


                     "The Commission claimed that Mrs. Markham identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man who shot
the policeman at a line up on November 22 and that in testimony before the Commission, Mrs. Markham confirmed her
positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald as the man she saw kill Officer Tippit. Captain Fritz - who needed that
identification real quickly -- testified that the lineup was hurriedly arranged at 4:30 that afternoon, less than three
and a half hours after Tippit's death and less than that after Oswald's arrest. Mrs Markham was "quite hysterical"
when she arrived at police headquarters. Her state and the atmosphere in the lineup room are best described by the
record of her testimony."


Q: Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Markham: Yes , sir.

Q: Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Markham: No, sir

Q: You did not? Did you see anybody-I have asked you that question before-did you recognize anybody from their face?

          "Counsel wished to remind Mrs. Markham that when he had prepared her for her testimony, before
a record of her answers was made, the matter had been discussed. To prepare a witness for testimony may
be acceptable where adversary and hostile cross-examination is expected, and it is also a legitimate way of
preventing repetition and irrelevant conjecture. The record of the Warren Commission, however, reveals no
such cross-examination and was burdened to such a degree by repetition and irrelevance that the initial
preparation seems to have been for the purpose of leading the witness to give an appropiate answer."


Markham: From their face, no.

Q: Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Markham: I didn't know nobody.

Q: I know you didn't know nobody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Markham: No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No one of them.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No, sir.

        "At this point counsel, a teacher of criminal law and procedure at the University of Southern California and
a member of the U.S. Judical Conference Advisory Committee on Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, asked a
rather leading question. Mrs. Markham said that she recognized no one at the lineup; counsel tried five times for a
more acceptable answer. Then, departing a little from the legal procedure he teaches, he next asked his friendly but
disconcerting witness, "Was there a number two man in there?" Mrs. Markham replied, "Number two is the one I
picked." Counsel began another question: "I thought you just told me that you hadn't, but Mrs. Markham interrupted
to answer inexplicably, "I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing."


Counsel then inquired:

Q: You recognized him from his appearance?

Markham: I asked-I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.

        "A mystical identification at best. However, the Commission was satisfied that its lawyer had at last
obtained the right answer: "Addressing itself solely to the probative value of Mrs. Markham's contemporaneous
discription of the gunman and her identification of Oswald at a police lineup, the Commission considers her
testimony reliable."


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Testimony Of Domingo Benavides

Mr. BELIN - Where were you when your vehicle stopped?
Mr. BENAVIDES - About 15 foot, just directly across the street and maybe a car length away from the police car.

~snip~

Mr. Belin: Let me ask you now, I would like you to relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now.

Mr. Benavides: As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired he had just turned. He was just turning away........

~snip~

Mr. BENAVIDES - I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off. and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look fiat in back.

~snip~

A photo below of Ozzie in custody the same day Benavides observed and described Tippit's killer.
He's obviously not the person he saw at murder scene.


He's obviously not the person he (Benavides ) saw at murder scene.

Thank you, Gary, It's such a pleasure to read posts from intelligent, reasonable, and rational people. 

I'd like to add a bit more positive information....  Virtually all of the witnesses said the man removed the spent shells ONE AT A TIME as he walked away from the scene.  The gun that was allegedly taken from Lee Oswald was a Smith & Wesson revolver .  Smith & Wesson revolvers are not unloaded by extracting one shell at a time ....   The Smith & Wesson is designed to remove all the shells at once with a single push of the extractor rod.    And the user hand is usually covered with burned gun powder.    Clearly the killer was NOT using a Smith and Wesson revolver.....So Lee Oswald could not have been the murderer.....

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #180 on: October 23, 2019, 09:07:56 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #181 on: October 23, 2019, 09:10:17 PM »
Not exactly. Some witnesses ID'd Oswald at the Tippit scene during the shooting, and others ID'd him nearby shortly after.

Unfair, biased lineups are unreliable.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #182 on: October 23, 2019, 09:13:41 PM »
OK ....Let's go with the percentage.....  80% of the witnesses reported only one man was the shooter.....

Bull.  Only one witness saw a shooter at all.

Quote
How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?  They saw the gun in his hands.....  How many men were at the scene or trotting up Patton carrying a gun?

How should I know?  Seeing a guy holding a gun (or in some cases not even holding a gun) at a different location is not the same as seeing a shooter.

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #182 on: October 23, 2019, 09:13:41 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
« Reply #183 on: October 23, 2019, 09:14:30 PM »
Why would they need to know what anybody else saw.

Because Bill Brown claimed that they all saw the same man.