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Author Topic: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)  (Read 10870 times)

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2019, 07:03:14 AM »
Please note that I have updated the original post with a sequence that I believe is supported by analysis of the accumulated evidence. Happy to have serious debate and modify where appropriate.

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2019, 07:03:14 AM »

Offline Otto Beck

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2019, 08:36:52 AM »
I somehow doubt the truthfulness of Belin's last statement.

LOL

Online Jerry Freeman

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2019, 09:32:23 AM »
  He wore a raincoat to work that morning but also kept a jacket at work. I don't see that distinction as undermining his testimony.   
Of course you wouldn't. But the phrase 'I also kept a jacket at work' was never used.

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2019, 09:32:23 AM »

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2019, 02:17:56 PM »
I can see where you are coming from Richard. Certainly worth a considered response. Belin specifically mentioned “jacket”, as he was obviously aware of the significance that this will play later when Givens claimed collecting his jacket because his cigarettes were in the pocket. It seems the normal practice was to leave jackets, coats and hats in the domino room. Givens replied with raincoat. He did not say “I wore a jacket and coat”….simply raincoat. Belin asked if he hung his “coat” in the domino room and Givens simply confirms. As the jacket was central to the argument one would think that Belin should have clarified and then moved on.

No one can ever sort these details out with absolute certainty.  It is curious, however, that (I believe) in every reference to the 6th floor trip Givens calls it a "jacket" and in references to the domino room he calls it a "coat" or "raincoat" even when the question involves a "jacket."  He does that consistently.  It is possible that he wore a raincoat that morning but kept a jacket at work.  Maybe it was chilly in the building.  Who knows?  It is just a plausible explanation.  I just don't see that ambiguity undermining his entire testimony.  And if there was some frame up or lie going on involving Givens why would Belin seek specific clarification that he hung it in the domino room?  Why not just gloss over that?  Why even involve a jacket at all in a fake 6th floor story?  Why not just say he left his cigarettes on the 6th floor?  The jacket doesn't make much sense as part of a contrived story.  There is some piece of information missing like Givens kept a jacket or long work shirt that might be referred too as a jacket in the building.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 02:45:23 PM by Richard Smith »

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2019, 02:39:16 PM »
Of course you wouldn't. But the phrase 'I also kept a jacket at work' was never used.

Was he ever asked that question?  I just pointed out a plausible explanation based on his responses to the questions he was asked.  If we knew the answer with certainty, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Do you have some reason to believe he didn't keep a jacket at work?

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2019, 02:39:16 PM »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2019, 02:48:13 PM »
No one can ever sort these details out with absolute certainty.  It is curious, however, that (I believe) in every reference to the 6th floor trip Givens calls it a "jacket" and in references to the domino room he calls it a "coat" or "raincoat" even when the question involves a "jacket."  He does that consistently.  It is possible the he wore a raincoat that morning but kept a jacket at work.  Maybe it was chilly in the building.  Who knows?  It is just a plausible explanation.  I just don't see that ambiguity undermining his entire testimony.  And if there was some frame up or lie going on involving Givens why would Belin seek specific clarification that he hung it in the domino room?  Why not just gloss over that?  Why even involve a jacket at all in a fake 6th floor story?  Why not just say he left his cigarettes on the 6th floor?  The jacket doesn't make much sense as part of a contrived story.  There is some piece of information missing like Givens kept a jacket or long work shirt that might be referred too as a jacket in the building.

Thanks for your reply Richard. I think we would both agree it would have been preferable if Belin clarified the issue by asking if he wore a jacket upstairs that morning.

As for Givens, it was in this testimony, months after the event that he first mentioned the cigarette trip sighting of Oswald on the  sixth floor. His description of the event, particularly his position at the time and Oswald's makes it difficult to believe. He was interviewed on the day of the assassination and the following day. On that occasion the report stated he saw Oswald about 20 minutes after the elevator race, not on the sixth floor, but in the domino room reading a paper. In any event, his supposed sighting happened just a few minutes after the elevator race. Then Oswald was on the 5th floor, his appearance on the 6th floor would be followed by the Piper sighting at noon on the first floor.

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2019, 03:16:33 PM »
Thanks for your reply Richard. I think we would both agree it would have been preferable if Belin clarified the issue by asking if he wore a jacket upstairs that morning.

As for Givens, it was in this testimony, months after the event that he first mentioned the cigarette trip sighting of Oswald on the  sixth floor. His description of the event, particularly his position at the time and Oswald's makes it difficult to believe. He was interviewed on the day of the assassination and the following day. On that occasion the report stated he saw Oswald about 20 minutes after the elevator race, not on the sixth floor, but in the domino room reading a paper. In any event, his supposed sighting happened just a few minutes after the elevator race. Then Oswald was on the 5th floor, his appearance on the 6th floor would be followed by the Piper sighting at noon on the first floor.

It's an interesting discussion, but I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference to the case whether Givens made his trip to the 6th floor or not.  I doubt any CTers believes that it would mean that Oswald was the assassin if Givens story is true.  Conversely, no LNer would believe Oswald is innocent if Givens made the whole thing up.  We know Oswald was in the building and can't be accounted for at the moment of the assassination.  The presence of Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor is the most important piece of evidence in the case.  Until someone can explain its presence there in a credible way that does not involve Oswald as the assassin, it is damning evidence.  His flight, involvement in another murder, lies and absence of an alibi are just icing on the cake. 

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2019, 03:16:33 PM »

Offline Brian Doyle

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A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2019, 03:28:15 PM »
We know Oswald was in the building and can't be accounted for at the moment of the assassination.

That isn't true and any responsible researcher who was attempting to responsibly report the facts to the public would admit two witnesses saw Oswald in or near the 2nd floor lunch room close to the shots...And then Baker & Truly saw him in that same spot right after...

Greg Parker and Bart Kamp are taking the side of the FBI and their concealing this true location of Oswald and are therefore committing research heresy with the full approval of rotund Jim DiEugenio and his loose cannon approval of the biggest nuts out there in CT land...I'm honestly not sure which side Jim D is working for and neither was Drago...

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A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2019, 03:28:15 PM »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2019, 03:36:10 PM »
That isn't true and any responsible researcher who was attempting to responsibly report the facts to the public would admit two witnesses saw Oswald in or near the 2nd floor lunch room close to the shots...And then Baker & Truly saw him in that same spot right after...

Greg Parker and Bart Kamp are taking the side of the FBI and their concealing this true location of Oswald and are therefore committing research heresy with the full approval of rotund Jim DiEugenio and his loose cannon approval of the biggest nuts out there in CT land...I'm honestly not sure which side Jim D is working for and neither was Drago...

I think you will find that Richard's statement is literally correct. Oswald was "in the building" and (until now) unaccounted for at the time of the shots.

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2019, 03:43:55 PM »
It's an interesting discussion, but I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference to the case whether Givens made his trip to the 6th floor or not.  I doubt any CTers believes that it would mean that Oswald was the assassin if Givens story is true.  Conversely, no LNer would believe Oswald is innocent if Givens made the whole thing up.  We know Oswald was in the building and can't be accounted for at the moment of the assassination.  The presence of Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor is the most important piece of evidence in the case.  Until someone can explain its presence there in a credible way that does not involve Oswald as the assassin, it is damning evidence.  His flight, involvement in another murder, lies and absence of an alibi are just icing on the cake.

Ultimately, Givens sighting on the 6th floor, does little for either side. We have the corroborated sighting of him on the 5th floor just before noon during the elevator race and then Piper (and possibly Givens) placing him on the first floor closer to noon.

We haven’t discussed the implications of Carolyn Arnold's statements yet. What do we make of them? Lunchroom at 12.15 or first floor at 12.25, or neither??
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 03:44:49 PM by Colin Crow »

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Re: A Better Sequence (TM DVP)
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2019, 03:43:55 PM »

 

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