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Author Topic: Those Front Steps  (Read 22498 times)

Online Tom Scully

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Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2019, 10:05:57 PM »
..
So!

The question becomes-------------------
Why did Messrs Shelley and Lovelady change their story for the WC and say they both stayed on the steps and only left them after hearing from Ms Calvery about what had happened out on the street?
It seems such a pointless lie to tell, no?

Proposed solution!

The man in the red shirt standing just above Mr Carl Edward Jones in the Hughes film is not Mr Lovelady but Mr Oswald
...

Yet another thread on the same line of "inquiry". I guess the BYP (or the "Nessie"  or "Yeti" pics?) lesson is unlearned.... Who is the audience for this and what is the goal...what are readers to be convinced of, in the best of all possible outcomes? What have the BYP convinced you of? Why would your image evidence be more convincing to your audience than the BYP are to you, if you do not accept the authenticity of the BYP?

If you do not accept that these are pointless "out in front with Lovelady" "studies" in that nothing will be resolved as a result of them, why absorb this forum so completely, with them?

Quote
But put this fancy to the test, and it proves groundless; for as soon as a firm belief is reached we are entirely satisfied, whether the belief be true or false. And it is clear that nothing out of the sphere of our knowledge can be our object, for nothing which does not affect the mind can be the motive for mental effort. The most that can be maintained is, that we seek for a belief that we shall think to be true. But we think each one of our beliefs to be true, and, indeed, it is mere tautology to say so.   - Charles Sanders Peirce


Mrs. Reid and "the Domino Room" rooted in the PM/PW diversion so dear to their hearts of Doyle, Kamp, et al, are the
latest "Frazier's car-like" attention grabbing, yet actually inconsequential speculations interfering with the demonstrable contradictions laid out in examples in this thread.

This is why thousands of posts are devoted to the apparently too attractive to put aside, yet impossible to prove, attempted rewrite of the JFK, LN narrative in its entirety.

The only result since 2013 I actually see in this mental masturbatory "hobby" is the sheer volume of posts offered at the expense of actual focus on what the PROVEABLE details actually indicate.

No one (i.e., our readership of JFK forums) can be two places at once. The TSBD vestibule is quite the "crowded trade" and outsized focus on it serves up the added benefit of putting Doyle's mental asylum at the forefront; prayerwoman.com
(Pursuit of a "homerun" that will never be hit, at the expense of hitting singles or doubles that realistically portend to actually result in base runners crossing home plate and scoring runs the old fashioned way, via cumbersome and meticulous hours spent on proveable research. results). The huge number of PM/PW related posts and page views are no substitute for the singles and doubles that do not require so much mindless, gargantuan posting numbers, seemingly to compensate for lack of actual results or material leads.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 10:19:48 PM by Tom Scully »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2019, 10:05:57 PM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2019, 11:23:19 PM »
Alan,

1)  I just did (see my above posts -- plural)

2)  The most important thing about his shirt for purposes of this conversation is that it's mostly dark red (not brownish-pinkish), and that he's wearing it over a white T-shirt (a sliver of which can be glimpsed in the Hughes film as Lovelady, on the steps after the assassination and looking "Neanderthal-like" because he's jutting his jaw out while slowly exhaling cigarette smoke).

Which (dark-reddish) plaid shirt, by the way, Lovelady (with bald spot and everything) can be seen wearing with what looks like a pack of cigarettes in the pocket as they're leading Oswald past him in the police station.

3)  Since you don't want to be reasonable in our little "debate," the last thing I'm going to say to you regarding your "theory" is ... LOL!

--  MWT    ;)

 :D

So, Mr Graves, you can't see any plaid on the man in Hughes, you just assumed it's there. Got it!

You can't see that he is bald, you just assumed it. Got it!

You pretend not to know that Mr Oswald too was wearing a white tshirt under the shirt he wore to work that day. Got it!

In short-----you know that Mr Oswald shot President Kennedy, so you see whatever fits that notion--------------and block out whatever doesn't. Top-tier research!  Thumb1:

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2019, 11:36:00 PM »
Yet another thread on the same line of "inquiry". I guess the BYP (or the "Nessie"  or "Yeti" pics?) lesson is unlearned.... Who is the audience for this and what is the goal...what are readers to be convinced of, in the best of all possible outcomes? What have the BYP convinced you of? Why would your image evidence be more convincing to your audience than the BYP are to you, if you do not accept the authenticity of the BYP?

If you do not accept that these are pointless "out in front with Lovelady" "studies" in that nothing will be resolved as a result of them, why absorb this forum so completely, with them?

"Out in front with Lovelady"? What in heaven's name are you talking about, Mr Scully? :(

Anyway, to address the closest thing you have here to a substantive question------------------
Mr Oswald claimed to have gone outside to watch the Presidential parade. And... Messrs Lovelady and Shelley lied about when they left the front entranceway.

Now! Let these facts sink in. Once they have, you will finally understand why so many of us consider that Depository front entranceway, and the visual record of that entranceway, to be of potentially tremendous importance to this case.

Maybe we're wrong. Maybe we should be focusing on more material matters such as the fact that Person A once went fishing with Person B whose third cousin was a grade below Person D in high school.

Or maybe we're right!

Thumb1:

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2019, 11:36:00 PM »

Online Thomas Graves

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Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2019, 12:01:03 AM »
Quote from: Alan Ford

link=topic=2194.msg61413#msg61413 date=1569105360
Maybe we're wrong. Maybe we should be focusing on more material matters such as the fact that Person A once went fishing with Person B whose third cousin was a grade below Person D in high school.

Or maybe we're right! [!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

(emphasis added by MWT)


We?

We who?

-- MWT  ;)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 12:38:25 AM by Thomas Graves »

Online Tom Scully

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Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2019, 01:39:02 AM »
We?

We who?

-- MWT  ;)

......
So!

The question becomes-------------------
Why did Messrs Shelley and Lovelady change their story for the WC and say they both stayed on the steps and only left them after hearing from Ms Calvery about what had happened out on the street?
It seems such a pointless lie to tell, no?

Proposed solution!

The man in the red shirt standing just above Mr Carl Edward Jones in the Hughes film is not Mr Lovelady but Mr Oswald
..........

Quote
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm
......
Mr. BALL - Did you see him from time to time during that day?
Mr. SHELLEY - I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down to. eat lunch about 10 to 12.
Mr. BALL - Where had you been working?
Mr. SHELLEY - I had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that floor that morning.
Mr. BALL - What time did you go down and eat lunch?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was around 10 'til.
Mr. BALL - Did you eat your lunch?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, I started eating.
Mr. BALL - Where did you start eating it?
Mr. SHELLEY - In my office next to Mr. Truly's and 1 ate part of it which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside then to the front,
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr. BALL - And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.....

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/frazierb1.htm
......
Mr. BALL - Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor any time that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir. I didn't because like I say that was the only time I went up there at all that day and I was just up there for a few seconds.
Mr. BALL - Did you talk to him any that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER - I don't believe I did much unless he asked me something about a book like I told you, and I was always willing to help anybody I can.
Mr. BALL - Now, you knew that the President was going to pass that building sometime that morning, didn't you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I heard he would.
Mr. BALL - Did you talk to some of the men around there about it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to Oswald about that?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - What time did you knock off for lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - 12.
Mr. BALL - Did you eat your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by.
Mr. BALL - You went out there after you quit work?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, for lunch.
Mr. BALL - About 12 o'clock?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time?
Mr. FRAZIER - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you go out there with somebody?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL - Who did you go out there with?
Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.
Mr. BALL - And it turned out to be a good day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Pretty sunshiny day.
Mr. BALL - Warm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.
Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?,,,,

Quote
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/board,1.40.html   
Prayer Woman  4982 Replies    255785 Views

I consider myself observant, practical, results oriented. IOW, I do not suffer fools lightly....

Quote
http://harveyandlee.net/Norton/Norton.html
Donald O. and Donald P. Norton

by John Armstrong
.....
All of my materials related to Donald O. Norton and Donald P. Norton are in the Baylor collection and available to anyone and everyone. I encourage people to learn more about Donald O. Norton, his wife Lexie, and his children. The 55th reunion of Norton's Stowe high school senior class is coming up in a few years (2021). It would be interesting to attend and ask 1966 classmates about Donald Norton--his height/eye color/hair color, if Norton entered the military after high school, if anyone saw him after high school, knew of his whereabouts, or if he ever attended any class reunion. Hopefully, someday, we may learn the truth about the man who introduced himself to John Judge and Mae Brussel as Donald Norton.

This is a 1968 photo of Donald O.  Norton with then new and now present wife, Lexie, I recently located and presented, 1972 mystery presented by John Judge, solved.:



Quote
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25901-two-oswalds-in-the-texas-theater/page/26/?tab=comments#comment-406697
John Butler  Posted Tuesday at 08:02 AM
Jim,

I was trying to find or re-find an article by Penn Jones on the confrontation between Oswald and Officer Mcdonald when I ran across this by Penn Jones.
....On Saturday November 23, 1963, Jack Zangetty, the manager of a $150,000 modular motel complex near Lake Lugert, Oklahoma, remarked to some friends that "Three other men--not Oswald--killed the President." He also stated that "A man named Ruby will kill Oswald tomorrow and in a few days a member of the Frank Sinatra family will be kidnapped just to take some of the attention away from the assassination."
    Two weeks later, Jack Zangetty was found floating in Lake Lugert with bullet holes in his chest. It appeared to witnesses he had been in the water one to two weeks.......

I identified the mysterious death Penn Jones reported ??? on: He aspired to be a hit man and was actually murdered by his woman....in 1975.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=32.0
Tom Scully  Re: Was Jack Zangretti Off Base Or Not?
Reply #3 on: January 29, 2018, 02:04:30 AM


Alan, if you are content to struggle to confirm what you believe you alreadty know, continue belittling my approach and relationship with
fact, do not change a thing, keep swinging for the fences. I will stick to hitting singles and doubles, advancing runners across the plate.
I would not be satisfied having my presentation and approach being reminiscent of Doyle's.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 02:00:09 AM by Tom Scully »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2019, 01:39:02 AM »

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2019, 02:53:27 AM »
Alan...Red plaid shirt is Lovelady. There are other stills that show him more clearly, but I would have to dig.
However, while we are on the front steps...I came across this---- http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/40/4006-001.gif
Notice the bottom right [CD 354] --Oswald said [according to Fritz] that ''he left the TSBD through the front door and as he did.. he encountered two men who identified themselves as Secret Service and needed to use a telephone."

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2019, 03:52:30 AM »
Alan...Red plaid shirt is Lovelady. There are other stills that show him more clearly, but I would have to dig.
However, while we are on the front steps...I came across this---- http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/40/4006-001.gif
Notice the bottom right [CD 354] --Oswald said [according to Fritz] that ''he left the TSBD through the front door and as he did.. he encountered two men who identified themselves as Secret Service and needed to use a telephone."

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2019, 03:52:30 AM »

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2019, 04:25:18 AM »


Patsy Lee Harvey Oswald was scrawny and was not really all that bald. Lovelady was a beefier guy and was noticeably bald on the back of his head.
 


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2019, 04:25:18 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2019, 12:01:53 PM »
I consider myself observant, practical, results oriented. IOW, I do not suffer fools lightly....

This is a 1968 photo of Donald O.  Norton with then new and now present wife, Lexie, I recently located and presented, 1972 mystery presented by John Judge, solved.:



I identified the mysterious death Penn Jones reported ??? on: He aspired to be a hit man and was actually murdered by his woman....in 1975.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=32.0
Tom Scully  Re: Was Jack Zangretti Off Base Or Not?
Reply #3 on: January 29, 2018, 02:04:30 AM


Alan, if you are content to struggle to confirm what you believe you alreadty know, continue belittling my approach and relationship with
fact, do not change a thing, keep swinging for the fences. I will stick to hitting singles and doubles, advancing runners across the plate.
I would not be satisfied having my presentation and approach being reminiscent of Doyle's.

 :D Thank you for yet another gloriously self-regarding off-topic data-dump, Mr Scully!

Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he went "outside to watch P. parade"---------a claim that was suppressed and only saw the light of day last year. Messrs Shelley and Lovelady's WC testimonies are flatly contradicted by their same-day statements.

You would rather ignore these facts? Your problem!

Thumb1:

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2019, 12:12:18 PM »


Patsy Lee Harvey Oswald was scrawny and was not really all that bald. Lovelady was a beefier guy and was noticeably bald on the back of his head.
 

Hello Mr Freeman!

We seem to be talking at cross purposes...... I am questioning the assumption that the man near the bottom of the entranceway in these frames from the Hughes film------------

----------is Mr Lovelady. Neither baldness, beefiness nor plaidness can be established in this figure.

Mr Lovelady may already be standing several steps up, which is where we will see him in the Wiegman film and the Altgens photograph in just a few seconds' time.

Mr Oswald was wearing a reddish shirt (CE151) with a white tshirt underneath. I am suggesting he may in fact be the man in the frames above.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Those Front Steps
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2019, 12:12:18 PM »

 

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