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Author Topic: The "Domino Room Alibi"  (Read 13052 times)

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #330 on: September 22, 2019, 03:09:16 PM »
Well.....come on LN's

Anyone have any evidence to back David's "better chronology"?

Rowland clearly places the timing of the gunman on the 6th floor at about1 2.15pm.

Mr. SPECTER - When, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife?
Mr. ROWLAND - Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.

A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade taken from Dallas Police Radio logs indicates the The Motorcade got to Turtle Creek at 12.14 and Cedar Springs at 12.16pm.

Now some Harold Norman....

AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service

PS. David feel free to post any on these posts of mine on your website, (as you see fit).  :)

Norman did NOT go to the fifth floor at 12:15..... Junior Jarman testified that they left the front of the TSBD at about 12:25 and arrived on the fifth floor at about 12:28.  The time of 12:25 was verified by the police radio transmission of the location of the motorcade ......

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building?
Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator is the one you use the push button on?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the one you pull the gate.
Mr. BALL. That is right. It is a push button elevator.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you went up to the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Fifth floor.

Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
Mr. BALL - Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the Book Depository?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.
Mr. BALL - What about Mr. Truly?
Mr. JARMAN - He wasn't standing close to me.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was he with?
Mr. JARMAN. He was with the Vice President of the company.
Mr. BALL - What is his name?
Mr. JARMAN - O. V. Campbell.
Mr. BALL - Where were they standing?
Mr. JARMAN - They were standing at the corner of the building in front of the mail boxes.
Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.
Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr jarman - To the fifth floor.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 03:23:43 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #330 on: September 22, 2019, 03:09:16 PM »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #331 on: September 22, 2019, 03:17:45 PM »
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building?
Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator is the one you use the push button on?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the one you pull the gate.
Mr. BALL. That is right. It is a push button elevator.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you went up to the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Fifth floor.

Exactly Walt, the motorcade reached Main about 12.22pm. I wonder if Norman heard this over the same radio that Rowland mentioned. Remember that initially  Jarman and Norman crossed Houston with Givens and turned back. Perhaps they were close enough to hear on that radio.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 03:18:27 PM by Colin Crow »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #332 on: September 22, 2019, 04:11:00 PM »
Exactly Walt, the motorcade reached Main about 12.22pm. I wonder if Norman heard this over the same radio that Rowland mentioned. Remember that initially  Jarman and Norman crossed Houston with Givens and turned back. Perhaps they were close enough to hear on that radio.

There are photos that show a motorcycle parked near the front of the TSBD.....I assume that was the source of the radio transmission that Jarman heard.

There's no doubt that Jarman and Norman passed through the first floor shipping room at about 12:26....And Lee Oswald saw them.....  He could not have known that they walked through the shipping room if he had not been in the area.

Lee's casual mention of seeing "Junior" and another short Negro passing through the area was never intended to be an alibi. ( He was unaware that he needed an alibi)    At the time Lee when Lee was relating his whereabouts at the time the President passed the building he had no idea that he needed an alibi for that period.  He was simply telling the interrogators where he was, and what he was doing when the President passed by......and he recalled seeing "Junior" and another short Negro pas through the area.     

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #332 on: September 22, 2019, 04:11:00 PM »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #333 on: September 22, 2019, 04:52:18 PM »
There are photos that show a motorcycle parked near the front of the TSBD.....I assume that was the source of the radio transmission that Jarman heard.

There's no doubt that Jarman and Norman passed through the first floor shipping room at about 12:26....And Lee Oswald saw them.....  He could not have known that they walked through the shipping room if he had not been in the area.

Lee's casual mention of seeing "Junior" and another short Negro passing through the area was never intended to be an alibi. ( He was unaware that he needed an alibi)    At the time Lee when Lee was relating his whereabouts at the time the President passed the building he had no idea that he needed an alibi for that period.  He was simply telling the interrogators where he was, and what he was doing when the President passed by......and he recalled seeing "Junior" and another short Negro pas through the area.   

Looking at the floor plan of the first floor I think itís more likely he saw them pass by the window than walking in the building. They initially went to the east elevator......the line of sight from the domino room door makes it difficult unless he was sitting on the southern bench seat.

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #334 on: September 22, 2019, 06:40:34 PM »
Looking at the floor plan of the first floor I think itís more likely he saw them pass by the window than walking in the building. They initially went to the east elevator......the line of sight from the domino room door makes it difficult unless he was sitting on the southern bench seat.

Since the Domino Room was in the North east corner of the first floor with windows on the east and north sides of the room Lee could easily have seen Jarman and Norman walk by and then heard them enter and walk to the west elevator.....I certainly don't know where they were when he saw them, but there's no doubt that he did see them.   He may have deduced that they entered the back door simply by seeing them walk by the windows and then heard the elevator as they climbed aboard .

I don't believe the details are important....   The FACT is;  Lee was NOT on the sixth floor just a couple of minutes before the shots were fired....And it's not rational or logical to think that if he was preparing to shoot the Pres, that he'd be five floors beneath the alleged "Sniper's Nest" ....particularly when the parade was scheduled to be at Houston and Elm at 12:20....and at the Trade mart at 12:30....

The LNer's believe that Lee plotted and planned to murder JFK.....  I'd hasten tp point out that if he had plotted the murder he wouldn't have been sitting in the Domino Room at the very moment the parade was scheduled to pass by the building.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 08:30:32 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #334 on: September 22, 2019, 06:40:34 PM »

Offline Alan Hardaker

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #335 on: September 23, 2019, 01:09:46 AM »
It is completely utterly ridiculous  to suggest a fit and active 24 year old couldn't get from the 6th floor to the second floor in 90 seconds or so.

Who is actually suggesting this?

He would be in with a chance of getting from the 6th floor to the second floor and back up to the SN in 90 seconds.Now that would be a close run but...from the 6th to the 2nd in 90 secs...

So, what's your point? That he could have made it?.... Really?

Perhaps you should consider this;

The wooden stairs of the TSBD were old and noisy. Running down the stairs normally goes faster than going up, but going down at a higher rate of speed would likely produce more sound, wouldn't it? So, how come nobody on the 5th, 4th or 3rd floor heard or saw anything post shots? Especially, Dorothy Garner, who according to the Stroud letter, said that after Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles had gone down the stairs, she saw Baker and Truly come up. Are we really to believe that Oswald, running down the stairs, would not have been noticed by either Adams, Styles or Garner?

Again this argument carries very little credence. Yes going down the stirwell would make some noise, but if a person was trying to avoid detection they are hardly likely to come down fe-fi-foing now are they...and there's also the fact that the commotion and noise coming from the throngs of people out on the street would've drowned out any noise coming from the stirwell...and please remember the action was outside so the people on floors 3/4/5 would've obviously be looking out of the building to try and see what actually happened. By the time Baker & Truly hit the stirwell,the person decending, given the timeline, could've easily been on the second floor. And you make it sound as if it is impossible for the person decending to avoid being seen.

Nothing in this thread or in any other thread gives any real reason why a fit and active person could not decend from the 6th to the 2nd, in the time frame, without being seen or heard.Nothing. Whether that person was Oswald or whether Oswald was the shooter, is another matter.I believe he was the shooter.Others may differ.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 01:13:38 AM by Alan Hardaker »

Offline Anthony Clayden

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #336 on: September 23, 2019, 01:12:36 AM »
Walt,

The majority LN view is that he was not downstairs at that time and the naming of 2 people who just happened to walk through that area just prior to the shooting was either luck or him hearing them on the 5th whilst he was on the 6th.

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #336 on: September 23, 2019, 01:12:36 AM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #337 on: September 23, 2019, 01:40:46 AM »
Walt,

The majority LN view is that he was not downstairs at that time and the naming of 2 people who just happened to walk through that area just prior to the shooting was either luck or him hearing them on the 5th whilst he was on the 6th.

the naming of 2 people who just happened to walk through that area just prior to the shooting was either luck or him hearing them on the 5th whilst he was on the 6th.

the naming of 2 people who just happened to walk through that area just prior to the shooting was luck....  Luck??  Could Lee have simply made a lucky guess that "Junior" (Jarman) and his companion a little short Negro ( Norman) had walked past the Domino room at 12:26??

The odds are astronomical....  And if he hadn't seen them do you believe he would have made such a WAG and told the interrogators that he had seen them as they traveled from the front of the TSBD to the west elevator??  Lee wasn't stupid .....He would have known that the cops would likely verify every word he uttered.


or him hearing them on the 5th whilst he was on the 6th.

Lee didn't know either Jarman or Norman....He recognized that they were employees when he saw them walk by but he didn't know them....So how the hell would he identify them by the sound of their voices through the floor of the sixth floor if he had been there??

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #337 on: September 23, 2019, 01:40:46 AM »

Online Thomas Graves

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #338 on: September 23, 2019, 02:05:02 AM »

... or his hearing them on the 5th whilst he was on the 6th. -- A. Clayden

Lee knew neither Jarman nor Norman....He recognized that they were employees when he saw them walk by but he didn't know them....So how the hell could he identify them by the sound of their voices through the floor of the sixth floor if he had been there??

 -- W. Cakebread


Dear Walt,

Maybe they had distinctive voices?

He did watch them play dominoes from time-to-time, didn't he?

--  MWT  ;)

PS  I hope you don't mind my correcting y'all's grammar a little bit.

It's funny how the guy John Armstrong believes was born in Hungary and for whom English was a third language used better grammar than most college-educated Americans...

(Just sayin', Brian Doyle.)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 02:10:33 AM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #339 on: September 23, 2019, 02:39:24 AM »
Walt,

The majority LN view is that he was not downstairs at that time and the naming of 2 people who just happened to walk through that area just prior to the shooting was either luck or him hearing them on the 5th whilst he was on the 6th.

So, if he heard them on the 5th, just minutes before the shots, how would that qualify for any type of alibi? He mentions two witnesses he knows were within a few feet of the SN at the time of the assassination. How did he know where they had been in the previous 30 minutes? They had not even associated until just before they went to the front steps. If he had been on the 6th floor just after noon, for all he knew they could have been anywhere. Obviously Williams said nothing on his arrival with them or his voice was not distinctive.

I suggest the LN position is best left as "no idea" or "pure luck".
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 02:48:59 AM by Colin Crow »

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #339 on: September 23, 2019, 02:39:24 AM »

 

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