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Author Topic: The "Domino Room Alibi"  (Read 73125 times)

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #144 on: September 15, 2019, 01:03:03 AM »
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Colin, I talked about this in my reply to David (page 6), inserted below

I guess he missed it, as he never replied to it.

Fair enough, but then there is this; according to some interrogation reports Oswald made some vague comment about two negros being in (or walking through) the room where he was. Unfortunately, we don't really know what Oswald actually said verbatim, so we have to rely on the notes made by the interrogators and their choice of words for writing it in their report. However, having said that, I think that the combined reports do clearly suggest that Oswald did in fact make some comment about negros being in (or walking through) the room.

So, as he identified one of them by name, some time ago, I tried to establish a timeline for the movements of Jarman and Norman prior to their arrival at the 5th floor, and the conclusion was that these two men did indeed pass through the shipping area (visible from the Domino room) just minutes prior to the shooting. I am aware of the LN theory that Oswald first saw Jarman and Norman from the 6th floor window and later heard them talking (and identifying them) below him, which is why he concocted the story of seeing both men, but IMO that's a very weak narrative for two reasons; (1) During my visit to the TSBD, some years ago, I tried to look down to where I understood Norman and Jarman were supposed to have been and found it impossible to see that location from there and (2) if Oswald was able to identify both men by the sound of their voice, IMO those men on the 5th floor should also have been able to hear the movement on the floor above them, prior to the shots, which they didn't!

Which leaves me with a bit of a mystery. If I am being kind to Oswald, I could argue that he was indeed in the Domino room when he saw Norman and Jarman enter the loading area and walking towards the elevators, which means that it is possible that the interrogators simply were not precise enough in their reports.

So, here's the question; since we have already agreed that Oswald could have made it to the 6th floor in roughly the same time Norman and Jarman made it to the 5th floor, why are the LNs fighting so hard to ridicule and dismiss the scenario I have just outlined based on nothing else than those vague (and possibly wrong or incomplete) remarks in the interrogation reports?

Martin, a couple of points to consider.

First we have this.....

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.

Truly is referring to Givens, Jarman and Norman here, so, the latter two had walked some distance in a SE direction, across Houston, with Givens before turning back. Therefore they would be more visible to someone inside the building, on a higher floor, facing Elm.

Second is that Williams was still on the sixth floor and remained there until they arrived on the 5th. Perhaps the LN team can place Oswald somewhere he could observe Jarman and Norman at about 12.20pm

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #144 on: September 15, 2019, 01:03:03 AM »


Online David Von Pein

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #145 on: September 15, 2019, 01:14:36 AM »
Maybe you missed .......

Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him?
Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.

Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.
Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir

How could I have possibly missed them? You've repeated them three or four times now. :)


Quote
If he was basing his "very seldom" remark on Lovelady's comments, why not support his assertion with them? In any event Lovelady's comments are in answer to a question where Oswald ate lunch with him. Seems Lovelady did not eat regularly in the domino room and he was merely relating the number of times he saw Oswald in there.

Wrong. Lovelady told the Warren Commission that the place he "generally" ate his lunch was in the "domino room" [at 6 H 338]....

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

[DVP's emphasis.]
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 01:18:05 AM by David Von Pein »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #146 on: September 15, 2019, 01:28:37 AM »
How could I have possibly missed them? You've repeated them three or four times now. :)


Wrong. Lovelady told the Warren Commission that the place he "generally" ate his lunch was in the "domino room" [at 6 H 338]....

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

[DVP's emphasis.]

So my counter would be Arce, Jarman and Givens, throw in Shelley's "usually"......vs Lovelady.....doesn’t justify "very seldom".

And what to make of Truly.....

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not he brought his lunch to work generally?
Mr. TRULY. I never was aware that he brought a lunch. I would see him occasionally in the shipping department eating some little snack or something--didn't pay much attention: Offhand, it seemed to be not too much---a Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, and some little thing. Maybe he would be sitting there reading a book or a newspaper.
Mr. BELIN. You would see him occasionally reading a newspaper at the lunch hour?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure so; yes.
And occasionally--I didn't always go to lunch at 12--usually a little after. And he would have to pass my door to go out the front. Occasionally I had seen the boy go out, and maybe he would be gone long enough to get across the street and back, with something in his hand. I seem to recall possibly a newspaper, maybe potato chips or something like that.

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #146 on: September 15, 2019, 01:28:37 AM »


Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #147 on: September 15, 2019, 01:31:13 AM »
How could I have possibly missed them? You've repeated them three or four times now. :)


Wrong. Lovelady told the Warren Commission that the place he "generally" ate his lunch was in the "domino room" [at 6 H 338]....

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

[DVP's emphasis.]

David,

A nit-picky question:  Lovelady went over to where to get his lunch?

If the D.R., then he evidently took his lunch with him from there when he went upstairs to get the ice-cold coke-cola because, smart cookie that he was, he was keeping his lunch-eatin' options open, and his fall-back plan was to lug it back downstairs to the D.R. to eat it.

In other words, why not just leave his dang lunch in the D.R., go get the coke-cola, then go back to the D.R. to eat the dang thing?

--  MWT   ;)


« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 01:38:25 AM by Thomas Graves »

Online David Von Pein

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #148 on: September 15, 2019, 01:34:52 AM »
Quote from: Colin Crow
So my counter would be Arce, Jarman and Givens, throw in Shelley's "usually"......vs Lovelady.....doesn’t justify "very seldom".

OK. You might very well be correct on this point, Colin. I was merely providing a possible answer (re: "references") to this question that you asked me....

Quote
A question to the original poster DVP. Do you think that Lance's use of the word "seldom" is supported by the evidence? If yes, please provide any references that support its use.

I provided a reference (Lovelady's testimony).

That's all. (FWIW.)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 01:41:43 AM by David Von Pein »

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #148 on: September 15, 2019, 01:34:52 AM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #149 on: September 15, 2019, 01:42:55 AM »
@ David von Pein,

Could I have a reply to the points I have raised?


Online David Von Pein

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #150 on: September 15, 2019, 01:44:25 AM »
David,

A nit-picky question:  Lovelady went over to where to get his lunch?

If the D.R., then he evidently took his lunch with him from there when he went upstairs to get the ice-cold coke-cola because, smart cookie that he was, he was keeping his lunch-eatin' options open, and his fall-back plan was to lug it back downstairs to the D.R. to eat it.

In other words, why not just leave his dang lunch in the D.R., go get the coke-cola, then go back to the D.R. to eat the dang thing?

Fair point, Tommy.

Maybe Lovelady was afraid that that skinflint, penny-pinching new guy named Lee was going to come into the room and swipe his lunch. So Billy decided to take it with him to the second floor for safe-keeping. (Can't be too careful, after all.) :)

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #150 on: September 15, 2019, 01:44:25 AM »


Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #151 on: September 15, 2019, 01:52:12 AM »
Fair point, Tommy.

Maybe Lovelady was afraid that that skinflint, penny-pinching new guy named Lee was going to come into the room and swipe his lunch. So Billy decided to take it with him to the second floor for safe-keeping. (Can't be too careful, after all.) :)

Thanks, David.

1)  So, you confess, do you, that Lance Payette committed the heinous crime of saying "very seldom" when he should have said "seldom," or "occasionally," or some-such thing?

2)  Martin Weidmann is demanding that you answer his question.

3)  TCU is beating Purdue 10 to 6 at Purdue.


--  MWT   ;)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 01:53:15 AM by Thomas Graves »