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Author Topic: The "Domino Room Alibi"  (Read 16802 times)


Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #151 on: September 14, 2019, 08:27:42 PM »
...maybe Jarman's using...the word "again" was analogous to kids these days sayin' "you know," again and again?

Or maybe it's similar to bus driver Cecil McWatters' continual use of the term "in other words".*

* For today's hunk of "Incredible (Albeit Meaningless) Assassination-Related Trivia" (pertaining to Mr. McWatters), click the
link below: 😁

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1242.html#Cecil-McWatters-In-Other-Words
« Last Edit: September 14, 2019, 08:59:11 PM by David Von Pein »

Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #152 on: September 14, 2019, 11:18:36 PM »
A question to the original poster DVP. Do you think that Lance's use of the word "seldom" is supported by the evidence? If yes, please provide any references that support its use.

Although I can't be sure, it could be that Lance Payette's "very seldom" remark concerning Oswald eating lunch in the Domino Room was derived from this testimony provided by TSBD worker Billy Lovelady [at 6 H 337]....

Mr. BALL - Did Oswald ever eat lunch with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - He ate two or three times in that little domino room, but not by himself, with the rest of the boys.


Now, given the fact that Oswald was employed at the Book Depository for a little more than five weeks (27 work days to be exact* [October 16—November 22], not counting any Saturdays [and in his 2002 interview with Gary Mack, Wesley Frazier did say that the warehouse workers would sometimes work on Saturday]), I would say that "two or three times" (out of a possible 27) would, indeed, qualify as "very seldom".

* The above figure of "27 work days" does not include the date of Monday, November 11th, 1963, which was a federal holiday (Veterans Day), and we know that Lee Oswald spent that whole day at Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Texas.

Perry.....your witness. 😁
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 12:01:29 AM by David Von Pein »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #153 on: September 14, 2019, 11:49:39 PM »



Perhaps you could theorise why Bookout wrote that Oswald claimed they walked through the lunch room.


Colin, I talked about this in my reply to David (page 6), inserted below

I guess he missed it, as he never replied to it.

I agree with everything you just said, Martin.

My earlier point was not that I believe Oswald was down on the first floor at about 12:25. (As I said previously, I definitely do not believe such a thing.) I merely was pointing out the fact that a 12:25 alibi is not the same thing as a 12:30 alibi. And 12:30, as we all know, is the key time here.

Fair enough, but then there is this; according to some interrogation reports Oswald made some vague comment about two negros being in (or walking through) the room where he was. Unfortunately, we don't really know what Oswald actually said verbatim, so we have to rely on the notes made by the interrogators and their choice of words for writing it in their report. However, having said that, I think that the combined reports do clearly suggest that Oswald did in fact make some comment about negros being in (or walking through) the room.

So, as he identified one of them by name, some time ago, I tried to establish a timeline for the movements of Jarman and Norman prior to their arrival at the 5th floor, and the conclusion was that these two men did indeed pass through the shipping area (visible from the Domino room) just minutes prior to the shooting. I am aware of the LN theory that Oswald first saw Jarman and Norman from the 6th floor window and later heard them talking (and identifying them) below him, which is why he concocted the story of seeing both men, but IMO that's a very weak narrative for two reasons; (1) During my visit to the TSBD, some years ago, I tried to look down to where I understood Norman and Jarman were supposed to have been and found it impossible to see that location from there and (2) if Oswald was able to identify both men by the sound of their voice, IMO those men on the 5th floor should also have been able to hear the movement on the floor above them, prior to the shots, which they didn't!

Which leaves me with a bit of a mystery. If I am being kind to Oswald, I could argue that he was indeed in the Domino room when he saw Norman and Jarman enter the loading area and walking towards the elevators, which means that it is possible that the interrogators simply were not precise enough in their reports.

So, here's the question; since we have already agreed that Oswald could have made it to the 6th floor in roughly the same time Norman and Jarman made it to the 5th floor, why are the LNs fighting so hard to ridicule and dismiss the scenario I have just outlined based on nothing else than those vague (and possibly wrong or incomplete) remarks in the interrogation reports?

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #154 on: September 15, 2019, 12:47:03 AM »
Although I can't be sure, it could be that Lance Payette's "very seldom" remark concerning Oswald eating lunch in the Domino Room was derived from this testimony provided by TSBD worker Billy Lovelady [at 6 H 337]....

Mr. BALL - Did Oswald ever eat lunch with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - He ate two or three times in that little domino room, but not by himself, with the rest of the boys.


Now, given the fact that Oswald was employed at the Book Depository for a little more than five weeks (27 work days to be exact* [October 16—November 22], not counting any Saturdays [and in his 2002 interview with Gary Mack, Wesley Frazier did say that the warehouse workers would sometimes work on Saturday]), I would say that "two or three times" (out of a possible 27) would, indeed, qualify as "very seldom".

* The above figure of "27 work days" does not include the date of Monday, November 11th, 1963, which was a federal holiday (Veterans Day), and we know that Lee Oswald spent that whole day at Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Texas.

Perry.....your witness. 😁

Maybe you missed .......

Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him?
Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.

Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.
Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir

We also have the statement from Shelley posted by Gary Craig earlier.

If he was basing his "very seldom" remark on Lovelady's comments, why not support his assertion with them? In any event Lovelady's comments are in answer to a question where Oswald ate lunch with him. Seems Lovelady did not eat regularly in the domino room and he was merely relating the number of times he saw Oswald in there.

None of the statements above, from those employees who always ate in the domino room, and therefore best placed to comment, would support the use of "very seldom". I would expect a more considered approach from someone with his background.

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #155 on: September 15, 2019, 01:03:03 AM »

Colin, I talked about this in my reply to David (page 6), inserted below

I guess he missed it, as he never replied to it.

Fair enough, but then there is this; according to some interrogation reports Oswald made some vague comment about two negros being in (or walking through) the room where he was. Unfortunately, we don't really know what Oswald actually said verbatim, so we have to rely on the notes made by the interrogators and their choice of words for writing it in their report. However, having said that, I think that the combined reports do clearly suggest that Oswald did in fact make some comment about negros being in (or walking through) the room.

So, as he identified one of them by name, some time ago, I tried to establish a timeline for the movements of Jarman and Norman prior to their arrival at the 5th floor, and the conclusion was that these two men did indeed pass through the shipping area (visible from the Domino room) just minutes prior to the shooting. I am aware of the LN theory that Oswald first saw Jarman and Norman from the 6th floor window and later heard them talking (and identifying them) below him, which is why he concocted the story of seeing both men, but IMO that's a very weak narrative for two reasons; (1) During my visit to the TSBD, some years ago, I tried to look down to where I understood Norman and Jarman were supposed to have been and found it impossible to see that location from there and (2) if Oswald was able to identify both men by the sound of their voice, IMO those men on the 5th floor should also have been able to hear the movement on the floor above them, prior to the shots, which they didn't!

Which leaves me with a bit of a mystery. If I am being kind to Oswald, I could argue that he was indeed in the Domino room when he saw Norman and Jarman enter the loading area and walking towards the elevators, which means that it is possible that the interrogators simply were not precise enough in their reports.

So, here's the question; since we have already agreed that Oswald could have made it to the 6th floor in roughly the same time Norman and Jarman made it to the 5th floor, why are the LNs fighting so hard to ridicule and dismiss the scenario I have just outlined based on nothing else than those vague (and possibly wrong or incomplete) remarks in the interrogation reports?

Martin, a couple of points to consider.

First we have this.....

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.

Truly is referring to Givens, Jarman and Norman here, so, the latter two had walked some distance in a SE direction, across Houston, with Givens before turning back. Therefore they would be more visible to someone inside the building, on a higher floor, facing Elm.

Second is that Williams was still on the sixth floor and remained there until they arrived on the 5th. Perhaps the LN team can place Oswald somewhere he could observe Jarman and Norman at about 12.20pm

Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #156 on: September 15, 2019, 01:14:36 AM »
Maybe you missed .......

Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him?
Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.

Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.
Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir

How could I have possibly missed them? You've repeated them three or four times now. :)


Quote
If he was basing his "very seldom" remark on Lovelady's comments, why not support his assertion with them? In any event Lovelady's comments are in answer to a question where Oswald ate lunch with him. Seems Lovelady did not eat regularly in the domino room and he was merely relating the number of times he saw Oswald in there.

Wrong. Lovelady told the Warren Commission that the place he "generally" ate his lunch was in the "domino room" [at 6 H 338]....

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

[DVP's emphasis.]
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 01:18:05 AM by David Von Pein »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #157 on: September 15, 2019, 01:28:37 AM »
How could I have possibly missed them? You've repeated them three or four times now. :)


Wrong. Lovelady told the Warren Commission that the place he "generally" ate his lunch was in the "domino room" [at 6 H 338]....

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

[DVP's emphasis.]

So my counter would be Arce, Jarman and Givens, throw in Shelley's "usually"......vs Lovelady.....doesn’t justify "very seldom".

And what to make of Truly.....

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not he brought his lunch to work generally?
Mr. TRULY. I never was aware that he brought a lunch. I would see him occasionally in the shipping department eating some little snack or something--didn't pay much attention: Offhand, it seemed to be not too much---a Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, and some little thing. Maybe he would be sitting there reading a book or a newspaper.
Mr. BELIN. You would see him occasionally reading a newspaper at the lunch hour?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure so; yes.
And occasionally--I didn't always go to lunch at 12--usually a little after. And he would have to pass my door to go out the front. Occasionally I had seen the boy go out, and maybe he would be gone long enough to get across the street and back, with something in his hand. I seem to recall possibly a newspaper, maybe potato chips or something like that.

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #158 on: September 15, 2019, 01:31:13 AM »
How could I have possibly missed them? You've repeated them three or four times now. :)


Wrong. Lovelady told the Warren Commission that the place he "generally" ate his lunch was in the "domino room" [at 6 H 338]....

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

[DVP's emphasis.]

David,

A nit-picky question:  Lovelady went over to where to get his lunch?

If the D.R., then he evidently took his lunch with him from there when he went upstairs to get the ice-cold coke-cola because, smart cookie that he was, he was keeping his lunch-eatin' options open, and his fall-back plan was to lug it back downstairs to the D.R. to eat it.

In other words, why not just leave his dang lunch in the D.R., go get the coke-cola, then go back to the D.R. to eat the dang thing?

--  MWT   ;)


« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 01:38:25 AM by Thomas Graves »

Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #159 on: September 15, 2019, 01:34:52 AM »
Quote from: Colin Crow
So my counter would be Arce, Jarman and Givens, throw in Shelley's "usually"......vs Lovelady.....doesn’t justify "very seldom".

OK. You might very well be correct on this point, Colin. I was merely providing a possible answer (re: "references") to this question that you asked me....

Quote
A question to the original poster DVP. Do you think that Lance's use of the word "seldom" is supported by the evidence? If yes, please provide any references that support its use.

I provided a reference (Lovelady's testimony).

That's all. (FWIW.)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 01:41:43 AM by David Von Pein »

 

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