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Author Topic: Crease in SN box  (Read 3465 times)

Offline Colin Crow

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Crease in SN box
« on: September 05, 2019, 07:03:10 AM »
Many will be aware of the crease reported in the SN box......

Testimony of Luke Mooney.....

"And, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from."

Does anyone know what direction the crease originally indicated or have a photo that shows it? I believe it might be in a Studebaker Exhibit.

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Crease in SN box
« on: September 05, 2019, 07:03:10 AM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2019, 11:07:02 AM »
Many will be aware of the crease reported in the SN box......

Testimony of Luke Mooney.....

"And, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from."

Does anyone know what direction the crease originally indicated or have a photo that shows it? I believe it might be in a Studebaker Exhibit.


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2019, 03:15:25 PM »


Thanks Charles, I gather it is the mark on top of the box at the bottom of the photo. This is consistent with what I think the original thoughts were regarding shooting before the reappearance of Day after 3pm.

Mr. BELIN. If you put your initials on or your name on on November 25, how do you know this was the same box that was there when you first came?
Mr. DAY. There was a scar on the top of or the top side of this box that was sitting there. I noticed that at the time. I thought the recoil of the gun had caused that. I later decided that was in the wrong direction. It was not the recoil of the gun but I did notice this scar on the box.

That the shots were fired at JFK on Houston and as the car turned onto Elm ie. facing SE Not as they later found out after JFK had passed on Elm...ie. facing SW. This was because the shells were to the right of the box and was the lunch remnants. Likely that the initial assumption was that the shooter would take the shot as JFK approached the building.

Also explains why the right window strip was removed initially by Studebaker and was later replaced by the left one. As evidenced by 2 measurements for the strip. The first being 30 and the second at 40.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 03:23:25 PM by Colin Crow »

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2019, 03:15:25 PM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2019, 03:48:48 PM »
Many will be aware of the crease reported in the SN box......

Testimony of Luke Mooney.....

"And, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from."

Does anyone know what direction the crease originally indicated or have a photo that shows it? I believe it might be in a Studebaker Exhibit.


In the early stages of the "investigation, At the time the police were speculating that the shots had been fired from SE corner window they imagined the hidden loafers, smoking nook ( the stacked boxes that concealed the loafer) was a "Sniper's Nest"  and they imagined that he had rested a rifle on the boxes of Rolling Readers and fired out of the window.    It was a stupid and poorly reasoned idea.....because if a man had sat on the box and rested a rifle on the top of tge Rolling Readers boxes he could not have declined the muzzle of the rifle down onto Elm street.   They thought that the crease on the box was made by the rifle when it recoiled...( which is another utterly fantastic idea)   Then they decided that the Mannlicher Carcano had been the rifle used....But there is NOTHING on the bottom of a Carcano that would create such a crease, and the Carcano is not a heavy recoil rifle......     

None of the above caused the police a second thought.....They used the Smoker's Nook and the spent shells and every shred of imagination to concoct a stupid tale that many folks still accept....

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2019, 06:50:51 PM »
Thanks Charles, I gather it is the mark on top of the box at the bottom of the photo. This is consistent with what I think the original thoughts were regarding shooting before the reappearance of Day after 3pm.

Mr. BELIN. If you put your initials on or your name on on November 25, how do you know this was the same box that was there when you first came?
Mr. DAY. There was a scar on the top of or the top side of this box that was sitting there. I noticed that at the time. I thought the recoil of the gun had caused that. I later decided that was in the wrong direction. It was not the recoil of the gun but I did notice this scar on the box.

That the shots were fired at JFK on Houston and as the car turned onto Elm ie. facing SE Not as they later found out after JFK had passed on Elm...ie. facing SW. This was because the shells were to the right of the box and was the lunch remnants. Likely that the initial assumption was that the shooter would take the shot as JFK approached the building.

Also explains why the right window strip was removed initially by Studebaker and was later replaced by the left one. As evidenced by 2 measurements for the strip. The first being 30 and the second at 40.

Thanks Charles, I gather it is the mark on top of the box at the bottom of the photo. This is consistent with what I think the original thoughts were regarding shooting before the reappearance of Day after 3pm.

I believe that Mooney's testimony was about a "slight crease" and Day's testimony was about something different, a "scar." The cardboard that was used in the boxes is basically constructed in three distinct layers, an outer layer, a middle layer (that is corrugated) and an inner layer. It appears to me that the "scar" was caused by a tearing of the outer layer away from the middle, corrugated layer. And the missing piece of the outer layer exposed the corrugated layer. In my opinion, this was most likely caused in handling the box, perhaps a corner of another box when stacking them, or something similar to that.

It is difficult to tell from the photos, but the elongated darkened area between the arrows that I placed in this photo could be what Mooney was describing as a "slight crease." And it would be in the proper direction for a shot down Elm Street.





I also think that it is most likely that the boxes were full of books and therefore would not crease any more than just slightly when the box was hit with a fist or the rifle. Here is a photo showing the secret service reenactment. You have to use your imagination a little to envision how the rifle was held.



In my opinion, people who thought that he would have shot as the limo approached the TSBD probably had never gone through infantry training with the USMC. A military style ambush takes into account surprise, concealment, and escape afterwards, among other things. Firing upon the approach would have been a big mistake because it would most likely have exposed his position while the secret service agents were looking in that direction. And return fire from the SS would have been the most likely result.

I don't know what you are referring to when you say the window strip. Please explain. Thanks

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2019, 06:50:51 PM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2019, 07:13:15 PM »
Thanks Charles, I gather it is the mark on top of the box at the bottom of the photo. This is consistent with what I think the original thoughts were regarding shooting before the reappearance of Day after 3pm.

I believe that Mooney's testimony was about a "slight crease" and Day's testimony was about something different, a "scar." The cardboard that was used in the boxes is basically constructed in three distinct layers, an outer layer, a middle layer (that is corrugated) and an inner layer. It appears to me that the "scar" was caused by a tearing of the outer layer away from the middle, corrugated layer. And the missing piece of the outer layer exposed the corrugated layer. In my opinion, this was most likely caused in handling the box, perhaps a corner of another box when stacking them, or something similar to that.

It is difficult to tell from the photos, but the elongated darkened area between the arrows that I placed in this photo could be what Mooney was describing as a "slight crease." And it would be in the proper direction for a shot down Elm Street.





I also think that it is most likely that the boxes were full of books and therefore would not crease any more than just slightly when the box was hit with a fist or the rifle. Here is a photo showing the secret service reenactment. You have to use your imagination a little to envision how the rifle was held.



In my opinion, people who thought that he would have shot as the limo approached the TSBD probably had never gone through infantry training with the USMC. A military style ambush takes into account surprise, concealment, and escape afterwards, among other things. Firing upon the approach would have been a big mistake because it would most likely have exposed his position while the secret service agents were looking in that direction. And return fire from the SS would have been the most likely result.

I don't know what you are referring to when you say the window strip. Please explain. Thanks



Viewing the bottom photo....It's obvious that Lee Oswald could not have sat on a box and rested the Carcano on the stacked Rolling readers. and declined the muzzle of the rifle down onto Elm street in front of the TSBD.....Just guessing..... but probably the lowest a rifle could be declined would be the elevation of the railroad tracks on the triple underpass   

And if the rifle had been fired from that site, then to decline the muzzle the rifleman would have to have stood up which would have negated the scar on the box idea completely....... ( because the Rolling Reader boxes could not have been employed by a standing shooter) And a standing shooter would have fired into the window ledge beneath the window.....
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 09:39:27 PM by Walt Cakebread »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2019, 08:53:26 PM »


Viewing the bottom photo....It's obvious that Lee Oswald could not have sat on a box and rested the Carcano on the stacked Rolling readers. and declined the muzzle of the rifle down onto Elm street in front of the TSBD.....Just guessing..... but probably the lowest a rifle could be declined would be the elevation of the railroad tracks on the triple underpass


Viewing the middle photo... It's obvious that Lee Oswald could not have seen the target. His eyeglasses are still on the floor!!!  ::)

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2019, 08:53:26 PM »

Offline Chris Bristow

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2019, 12:13:47 AM »
What part of the rifle would be able to cause any crease in a box. The butt of the rifle is buried in Oswald's shoulder. Any other part of the rifle like the bolt or scope would have to have a box laying right next to it, almost touching it. The position of the crease is on the front part of the box. how would you place the box so the bolt or scope touched it? It seems the back part of the box would be overlapping with Oswald's right arm and shoulder.

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2019, 12:13:47 AM »

Online John Mytton

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2019, 01:49:37 AM »
What part of the rifle would be able to cause any crease in a box.

Maybe Oswald used something else to make a crease and used the crease as extra stabilization?

JohnM

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2019, 02:57:47 AM »
Maybe Oswald used something else to make a crease and used the crease as extra stabilization?

JohnM

Utterly ridiculous!!

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Re: Crease in SN box
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2019, 02:57:47 AM »

 

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