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Author Topic: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley  (Read 1968 times)

Offline Mike Carney

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2019, 11:12:40 AM »
Please watch the video "JFK - The Smoking Gun" by Colin McLaren. It's an hour and 20 min long and it will explain about all the witnesses that say George with the gun and also the 10 people that smelled gun smoke after the firing started, not before.

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2019, 11:12:40 AM »

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2019, 04:58:11 PM »
McLaren: “Ten witnesses smelled gun smoke at street level at the time of the shooting”. The wind was 16 mph from the south west. The wind was blowing at 15 mph towards the TSBD. Patrolman Brown was standing above the motorcade on the overpass when he smelled gun smoke, wind was coming from behind him. Senator Yarbrough, riding in the car behind the Secret Service car, Ralph W. Yarbrough, was a war veteran and was very familiar with the smell of gun smoke. By days end, Deckers men pulled in several dozen witnesses. Hugh Betner saw one Secret Service agent pull out a gun, he was standing watching the motorcade.

Betzner doesn't say when relative to the last shot that he saw the rifle.

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Senator Yarbrough also saw a rifle.

Yarborough, in his affidavit, said he saw the rifle after the fatal shot:

    "After the shooting, one of the secret service men sitting down in the car in
     front of us pulled out an automatic rifle or weapon and looked backward."

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Dallas Mayor see’s one Secret Service agent standup with a sub-machine gun.

His testimony seems to place the rifle sighting after Clint Hill ran to the limousine:

    "The Secret Service men ran to that car. From out of nowhere appeared
     one Secret Service man with a submachine gun."

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Secret Service agent Winston Lawson testified he saw a fellow agent holding a rifle, an automatic weapon and the first thing that went through his head is that he had fired it.

    "I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car with the automatic
     weapon and first thought he had fired at someone."
          (Statement Dec. 1, 1963)

    "Then the second and third shots, reports, I noticed the President's car back
     there, but I also noticed right after the reports an agent standing up with an
     automatic weapon in his hand, and the first thing that flashed through my mind,
     this was the only weapon I had seen, was that he had fired because this was
     the only weapon I had seen up to that time."
          (WC Testimony)

Lawson did not see the Colt AR-15 "“in agent Hickey’s had at the time of the of the third shot."

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Agent Hickey was holding the AR 15. Agent Winston rides in the front of JFK in the lead car. He noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow up car, “I first thought that he had fired it”.

In his statement, Lawson places his Hickey sighting after the shooting:

    "As the lead car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report
     and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons
     to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing
     up in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at
     someone. Both the President's car and our lead car rapidly accelerated almost
     simultaneously."

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"Howard Donahue went through the Warren Report and found eleven witnesses that put the AR15 in Agent Hickeys hand at the time of the third shot. Of the eleven witnesses, seven are Secret Service agents". No mention of Mennengers book, I don't know. I have McLarens book on order, I will see what it says.

    "Nine witnesses--including Hickey himself--had put the gun in Hickey's hands
     just after the last shot. More important, two of the witnesses had put the
     gun in Hickey's hands the instant the shot was fired. And one had seen the
     agent stand up and fall over about the time the shot hit home."
          -- Mortal Error, p.105 (St. Martin's Press, 1992)

The "two witnesses" referred to in the book clipping are Sam Holland and supposedly Glen Bennett. Donahue's parsing of Holland's account is the basis for Hickey having been seen to "stand up and fall over about the time the shot hit home." I think Donahue is a lot more honest than McLaren.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2019, 06:48:41 PM »
A couple of years ago I slo-mo'd the Dix (or Bronson?) vid which revealed a guy in the back falling backwards with what appears to be a long thin object. Some showings chop that part off

I'll try to find that in my files
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 06:56:53 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2019, 06:48:41 PM »

Offline Mike Carney

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2019, 08:19:43 PM »
So there are a lot of people seeing the AR15 in Hickey’s hand, some thinking he fired it. No other weapons were seen by any of the witnesses. Other people, reputable people smelling gun smoke. The smoke flowed down the motorcade, common sense say’s he fired the gun.
It’s possible that the frangible round could have come from the Dal Tex Building or somewhere else behind JFK but then you have a problem with the gun smoke, it isn’t going to reach the motorcade because the wind is blowing in that direction.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2019, 09:54:24 PM »
So there are a lot of people seeing the AR15 in Hickey’s hand, some thinking he fired it.

Is that your new take on this claim?

    "Howard Donohue went through the Warren Report and found eleven witnesses
     that put the AR15 in Agent Hickeys hand at the time of the third shot. Of the
     eleven witnesses, seven are Secret Service agents."

OK. We got through to you.

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No other weapons were seen by any of the witnesses. Other people, reputable people smelling gun smoke. The smoke flowed down the motorcade, common sense say’s he fired the gun.

What's wrong with two heavy stretch-limos causing exhaust fumes that could be confused with the smell of gun smoke? No where else in the motorcade do they (and the motorcycle escorts) have such sudden all-out acceleration as they do after the last shot.

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It’s possible that the frangible round could have come from the Dal Tex Building or somewhere else behind JFK but then you have a problem with the gun smoke, it isn’t going to reach the motorcade because the wind is blowing in that direction.

Why the Dal-Tex? Because it's low to the street like Hickey's position? And that better conforms with the Donahue/McLaren trajectory through the head?



A lower trajectory slope would exit more up towards the apex, and thus cause a smaller gaping exit wound.

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2019, 09:54:24 PM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2019, 02:11:17 AM »
A couple of years ago I slo-mo'd the Dix (or Bronson?) vid

Dix?

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2019, 02:14:37 AM »

Offline Mike Carney

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2019, 05:01:56 PM »
I don’t understand what you, JO, mean by “Ok, we got through to you”

Witnesses to Hickey holding and possibly firing a “rifle”:
•   Dallas Mayor, Earl Cabel. see’s one Secret Service agent standup with a sub-machine gun.
•   Senator Yarbrough also saw a rifle.
•   Agent Winston rides in the front of JFK in the lead car. He noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow up car, “I first thought that    he had fired it”.
•   Sam Holland, a witness, is standing on top of the underpass as the motorcade is going under him. “After the first shot, the Secret Service agent raised up with a machine gun and dropped back down into the seat. WC Vol XIX, ex 5323, pg 480
•   Roy Kellerman testified there was an AR15 in the motorcade.
•   Hugh Betner saw one Secret Service agent pull out a gun, he was standing watching the motorcade. vol XXIV, ex 2003, pg 200
•   A police officer on the over pass as the motorcade passing under saw an agent swinging around the gun.
•   Margaret Chisolm WC vol XIX, ex 5323, pg 472 saw agents stand up and sit back down.
•   Jean Hill – Saw JFK grab his chest and fall forward and she thinks she saw men in plain clothes shooting back. WC Vol XXIV, Ex 2003, pg 212
•   Ralph Yarborough saw a SS Agent pull out a rifle. WC Vol VII, pg 439

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2019, 05:01:56 PM »

Offline Mike Carney

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2019, 05:31:14 PM »
“What's wrong with two heavy stretch-limos causing exhaust fumes that could be confused with the smell of gun smoke? No where else in the motorcade do they (and the motorcycle escorts) have such sudden all-out acceleration as they do after the last shot.”

JO, the problem with that is no one mentions “exhaust” fumes, they say “gunpowder”. Basic gunpowder is composed of charcoal, potassium nitrate, and sulfur which has a particular smell that to me smells nothing like exhaust fumes. So I am not buying car exhaust.

Witnesses to smelling gunpowder at street level:
•   Ralph Yarborough was in the car two cars behind the Presidents car and said he smelled gunpowder. He is a war veteran with more than 50 years experience with fire arms. WC Vol VII, pg 439
•   Earl Brown, Dallas Police Patrolman – “Heard shot’s and then smelled gunpowder” WC Vol VI, pg 233
•   Elizabeth Cabell, wife of Dallas mayor, said “acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder”  WC Vol VII, pg 486
•   Billy J. Martin, patrolman - “You could smell the gunpowder… you knew he wasn’t far away. When you’re that close, you can smell the powder burning. Why you—you’ve got to be pretty close to them… you could smell the gunpowder… right there in the street.”
•   Congressman Ray Roberts, seated next to her, had mentioned it also. Same source as Martin
•   Tom C. Dillard, two cars behind the Cabell car, he “. . . very definitely smelled gunpowder when the cars moved up to the corner [of Elm and Houston Streets] Same source as Martin
•   Virgie Rackley stood in front of the depository building close to the street. “She recalled that after the second shot, she smelled gun smoke…” same source as Martin
•   One newspaper summed it up: “. . . seconds later the cavalcade was gone. The area still reeked with the smell of gunpowder.” Same source as Martin

Offline Mike Carney

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2019, 06:07:25 PM »
JO, yes, the Dal Tex building because of the angles are similar. It came to mind because there have been witnesses that claimed they saw a shooter or heard a shot(s) come from that direction. I have also read that they, Marcello’s group, put a shooter in there. But again, no one would have smelled gunpowder with the wind direction.

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Re: Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2019, 06:07:25 PM »

 

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