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Author Topic: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown and chicken bones!  (Read 55941 times)

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown!
« Reply #224 on: September 05, 2019, 01:20:46 AM »
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I don't think your claim is correct but pick any narrative and you have a long list of mistaken witnesses. Let's say you posit 3 shots fired. Then the 2 witnesses inside the TSBD who heard no shots are mistaken. As are witnesses who heard 2, 4, 5, 6, and 8 shots, They are all mistaken. Suppose you think 4 shots were fired. Same long list of mistaken witnesses.

Choose your narrative John. You will have a long list of mistaken witnesses.

Of course your claim is true John but let's put some context to the posting.

One of the two main themes of this thread involves David's use of selected quotes from a variety of sources, including this one, on his website. Essentially to promote the LN cause and also serve as a repository for rebuttal arguments to CT questioning.

I pointed out the use of a quote of mine relating to the chicken lunch originally discovered in the SN by Luke Mooney. His counter argument was to suggest that Mooney was simply mistaken and that Williams testimony was proof of that. I pointed out the numerous officers who supported Mooney's observation prior to the arrival of Fritz. This was obviously not one mistaken officer but now involves all sharing the same mistaken memory. David chose to ignore this fact completely.

I also pointed out that his reliance on Williams WC testimony was on shaky ground as his previous statements were indicative of him being less than truthful about his movements immediately prior to the assassination.

This was the only statement that he responded to. It was a throw away about how CTs require lots of people to lie. Neither observation, the original position of the lunch remnants or the (understandable) reluctance of Williams to admit his presence in the SN just prior to the shots to the WC, both backed up by substantial documented evidence was directly addressed.

Why do the vast majority of LN true believers (excluding JohnM here) have to religiously stick to the unlikely sequence of events trotted out by the WR? A security blanket that is unsupported by the assembled evidence of their own investigative efforts.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 01:21:43 AM by Colin Crow »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown!
« Reply #224 on: September 05, 2019, 01:20:46 AM »


Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown!
« Reply #225 on: September 05, 2019, 03:18:13 AM »
The LN list of liars and/or “mistaken” witnesses is way more extensive than that of any CT.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=100.0

No way. Not even close. (As far as the number of "liars" is concerned anyway. I haven't done the math on "mistaken" witnesses.) You must have a strange way of adding.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 03:33:35 AM by David Von Pein »

Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown!
« Reply #226 on: September 05, 2019, 03:27:29 AM »
Hi David.  Can you provide specific examples of websites that contain copies of posts that you have made?

Pat Speer admitted last week that he has done it "dozens if not hundreds" of times....

"I make dozens if not hundreds of references to online discussions on my website. I quote online discussions with LNers and CTs alike. Some of the quotes involve eyewitnesses (I met so and so and they told me such and such). But most of them reveal mind-set. I use McAdams' own words against him. I use DVP's own words against him. And yes, I use the words of CT's like Fetzer against them. It should be noted, moreover, that among the best quotes I've been able to get via the various JFK forums are quotes from Dale Myers, in which he (badly, IMO) defends his SBT animation. I received these quotes via a middleman who took my complaints about Myers' animation to the source, begged for a response, and then posted Myers' response on the forums. This middleman--David Von Pein." -- Patrick J. Speer [Emphasis DVP's]
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 03:35:39 AM by David Von Pein »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown!
« Reply #226 on: September 05, 2019, 03:27:29 AM »


Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown!
« Reply #227 on: September 05, 2019, 05:17:15 AM »
David you might like to update your 914 entry for accuracy......

"I doubt there was ever any chicken bones right AT or IN the Sniper's Nest. Or on the SN boxes. The chicken bones and lunch sack and Dr. Pepper bottle were further WEST, where Bonnie Ray Williams said he ate lunch.

I think Luke Mooney was incorrect about the precise location where the bones were found."

You need to include the numerous officers I have quoted on more than one occasion. Mooney was not the only one to make the claim as your entry implies.

OK. I took your suggestion and updated that webpage. (Thanks.)

Here's an excerpt from that page (from either 2015 or 2016)....

COLIN CROW SAID:

Either he [Bonnie Ray Williams] lied,

Or

The assassin had a chicken lunch too that he didn't finish.....that disappeared entirely under the noses of numerous police officers (maybe they were hungry),

Or

The assassin grabbed BRW's lunch after he left......then someone moved it back to the two wheeler,

Or

Feel free to [provide] another possibility, David.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't think anyone lied. Some people were simply mistaken. Like Edwards and Fischer when they said FIFTH floor in their affidavits when they really meant SIXTH floor.

But the theory I'm hearing in this discussion means you guys need to have Bonnie Ray Williams [BRW] lying his head off, plus various police officers lying, and the Warren Commission too. It's just plain silly (not to mention totally unnecessary on ANYONE'S behalf)....and surely you know it's silly. But you insist on making mountains out of nothingness anyway. It's in a CTer's blood. You can't help it, I guess.

You guys seem to think the ONLY place where BRW could have possibly leaned back on some boxes on the entire sixth floor was INSIDE the Sniper's Nest itself----even though Williams is clear he was NOT that far EAST on the building's sixth floor when he ate his lunch. But you'll ignore the person who is obviously the best witness to say where he ate lunch----Bonnie Ray himself.

Plus, what makes you think Williams couldn't have MOVED the two-wheeler truck just a little bit (one way or the other)? It was a MOVABLE object, you know. Just as a piece of chicken is MOVABLE.

And a piece of chicken that inexplicably goes from one part of the sixth floor to another (and I cannot explain it; I have no idea why there is the conflicting testimony regarding the chicken bones) is not going to suddenly ERASE the physical evidence of Oswald's guilt. Nor will that piece of chicken (or its bones) erase the known incriminating ACTIONS of one Lee Harvey Oswald on 11/22/63.

Oswald's guilt in both the Kennedy and Tippit murders is rock-solid and will survive the avalanche of speculative nonsense coming from conspiracy theorists about chicken bones and the unsupportable allegations about Bonnie Ray Williams being a liar, etc.

Nobody in this discussion has done anything that diminishes Lee Oswald's guilty status----even if the chicken bones WERE moved around on the sixth floor by somebody (anybody!) on November 22nd.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 05:23:40 AM by David Von Pein »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown!
« Reply #228 on: September 05, 2019, 05:44:53 AM »
OK. I took your suggestion and updated that webpage. (Thanks.)

Here's an excerpt from that page (from either 2015 or 2016)....

COLIN CROW SAID:

Either he [Bonnie Ray Williams] lied,

Or

The assassin had a chicken lunch too that he didn't finish.....that disappeared entirely under the noses of numerous police officers (maybe they were hungry),

Or

The assassin grabbed BRW's lunch after he left......then someone moved it back to the two wheeler,

Or

Feel free to [provide] another possibility, David.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't think anyone lied. Some people were simply mistaken. Like Edwards and Fischer when they said FIFTH floor in their affidavits when they really meant SIXTH floor.

But the theory I'm hearing in this discussion means you guys need to have Bonnie Ray Williams [BRW] lying his head off, plus various police officers lying, and the Warren Commission too. It's just plain silly (not to mention totally unnecessary on ANYONE'S behalf)....and surely you know it's silly. But you insist on making mountains out of nothingness anyway. It's in a CTer's blood. You can't help it, I guess.

You guys seem to think the ONLY place where BRW could have possibly leaned back on some boxes on the entire sixth floor was INSIDE the Sniper's Nest itself----even though Williams is clear he was NOT that far EAST on the building's sixth floor when he ate his lunch. But you'll ignore the person who is obviously the best witness to say where he ate lunch----Bonnie Ray himself.

Plus, what makes you think Williams couldn't have MOVED the two-wheeler truck just a little bit (one way or the other)? It was a MOVABLE object, you know. Just as a piece of chicken is MOVABLE.

And a piece of chicken that inexplicably goes from one part of the sixth floor to another (and I cannot explain it; I have no idea why there is the conflicting testimony regarding the chicken bones) is not going to suddenly ERASE the physical evidence of Oswald's guilt. Nor will that piece of chicken (or its bones) erase the known incriminating ACTIONS of one Lee Harvey Oswald on 11/22/63.

Oswald's guilt in both the Kennedy and Tippit murders is rock-solid and will survive the avalanche of speculative nonsense coming from conspiracy theorists about chicken bones and the unsupportable allegations about Bonnie Ray Williams being a liar, etc.

Nobody in this discussion has done anything that diminishes Lee Oswald's guilty status----even if the chicken bones WERE moved around on the sixth floor by somebody (anybody!) on November 22nd.

Take a breath David.......

Did I say that any of those officers lied? Of course they didn't. They faithfully reported what they saw. You are aware that the reports for a day or more talked of the assassin lying in wait eating the chicken lunch. Those officers initially saw it in the SN. In their oral histories etc taken many years later many still believed the chicken lunch was Oswald's.

Of course the lunch was moved, at least once, from the position Mooney (and the others) initially reported prior to the arrival of Fritz. I assumed you know who the likely suspect was. If I was wrong here is the clue once more.

Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect. I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?
Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.
That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.
On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.
 
At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled down to the street for them to send us the crime lab.



In "No More Silence" by Larry Sneed reporter Jim Ewell related the following account of events and likely provides the missing piece of the puzzle.
 
"Meanwhile Jerry Hill worked his way up to the sixth floor, leaned out an open window, and he had what was thought to be Oswald’s little fried chicken lunch. It was in a little pop box. Jerry was holding that box and holding up one of the chicken bones exclaiming to everybody that listened to him down on the street that the fried chicken was what he had been eating. About that time there was a commotion around one of the squad cars, and we could hear a radio saying that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff." 

There you go. Gerry Hill only moved one window across as evidenced by the picture above. He likely dropped the chicken and bag down before leaving and encountering Fritz. This would now be a group of boxes westward of their original position. To an area guarded by Johnson upon his arrival as evidence by his testimony. At some point after that someone (likely Johnson) put the chicken piece in the bag and set it down near the two wheeler. The consolidated evidence is overwhelming that the original position of the lunch was in the SN area. It was moved, likely on two occasions and the last put the chicken piece inside.

That's my take on all the information I have been able to absorb. Does any of this seem outrageous to you. No officers need to lie, (well little ones about moving stuff a bit but it was chaos up there), and no one was incriminating Oswald.

We can deal with Williams next.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 06:03:05 AM by Colin Crow »

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Re: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown!
« Reply #228 on: September 05, 2019, 05:44:53 AM »


Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown!
« Reply #229 on: September 05, 2019, 06:31:06 AM »
Based on the shadow being cast on the bricks, it looks to me like Gerald Hill is holding his own HAT in his right hand in this photo, not a "chicken box" (or bag)....




Bigger view:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JlXuHKhl9S4/TZPZmjH3RkI/AAAAAAAATso/wjE0gVlyLIc/s3000-h/Gerald%2BHill%2BLeaning%2BOut%2BTSBD%2BWindow.jpg
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 06:42:51 AM by David Von Pein »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown!
« Reply #230 on: September 05, 2019, 06:47:05 AM »
Based on the shadow being cast on the bricks, it looks to me like Gerald Hill is holding his own HAT in his right hand in this photo, not a "chicken box" (or bag)....




Bigger view:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JlXuHKhl9S4/TZPZmjH3RkI/AAAAAAAATso/wjE0gVlyLIc/s3000-h/Gerald%2BHill%2BLeaning%2BOut%2BTSBD%2BWindow.jpg

So....I never said the photo showed the chicken. Merely that it showed the window he leaned out of. It confirms he was just one window away. It is Jim Ewell who made the claim that at some stage he held the lunch. The photo supports his claim (to an extent). Or another mistake? Perhaps he picked it up after the photo or had set it down just before. I take it you have nothing about the officers who all claimed it was in the SN before the arrival of Fritz.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 06:49:09 AM by Colin Crow »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown!
« Reply #230 on: September 05, 2019, 06:47:05 AM »


Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown!
« Reply #231 on: September 05, 2019, 06:53:31 AM »
BTW/FYI....

Here's a different photo showing Gerry Hill leaning out the window, and this picture verifies that it is definitely Hill's hat that he is holding....

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184839/m1/1/
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 07:03:21 AM by David Von Pein »