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is having a total Meltdown and chicken bones!  (Read 19463 times)

Online Steve Howsley

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The lowest point about this whole matter is how unimportant this discussion is. DVPís relevance can be swapped out with two letters.. ďWCĒ. He represents nothing more. There are so many more people that have been lost to the research community who are of unestimable value, whose loss is worth far more words of debate. And, there are curious, nascent thinkers and future researchers who DVPís trophy wall and propaganda are meant to discourage. Itís a waste of time and attention upon which he thrives and through which he counts his victories.

If the discussion is so unimportant then why are you here?

It's my opinion that Dave's contribution to JFK research far outweighs the combined efforts of most people at the

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. He has demolished the 2 x LHO and mother madness and has exposed the prayer man theory as nonsense leaving it nowhere else to go until there is more than a photographic blob to examine.


Offline John Iacoletti

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And if that evidence WASN'T faked or manufactured, then Lee Oswald is certainly a guilty double-murderer. (Everyone--even CTers--can surely agree with that last statement---right?)

Wrong.

Offline Otto Beck

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Because that moderator has no right to restrict what I choose to say (even about him) on another Internet location. It's called FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

Then why don't you sue him, genius?

Offline Colin Crow

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David, while we have your engagement could we explore the following example that uses a direct quote from me here.......http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/03/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-914.html

COLIN CROW SAID:

The consolidated evidence indicates BRW lied and spent time before vacating the SN leaving his chicken sandwich unfinished.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Beautiful. One more "liar" to add to a CTer's list. What a surprise. Everybody's a liar except Lee Harvey.

COLIN CROW SAID:

Who moved the chicken twice, David? If BRW is truthful it goes from the two wheeler to the SN and back to the two wheeler.

BRW did not vacate his position until just a few minutes before the shots. Why not take his uneaten chicken with him?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I doubt there was ever any chicken bones right AT or IN the Sniper's Nest. Or on the SN boxes. The chicken bones and lunch sack and Dr. Pepper bottle were further WEST, where Bonnie Ray Williams said he ate lunch.

I think Luke Mooney was incorrect about the precise location where the bones were found. There's also confusion over the FIFTH or SIXTH floor for the chicken remnants, as Tom Alyea and Gerald Hill discuss in this 1993 video....

The following was reposted almost a year ago on the forum.......it was a verbatim copy of the previous analysis of the previous forum before the crash....ie some years old

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1266.msg32329.html#msg32329

Time to tackle Ball and Belin's questions with the evidence available to us. First up.....where was the lunch found.

Chicken Bone Story

Bonnie Ray Williams stated that he ate his lunch near the windows on the south side of the sixth floor.

Luke Mooney was first on the scene of the SN. His initial report mentions the lunch.

COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.
Date: November 23 1963
I was standing in front of the Sheriff's office at 505 Main Street, Dallas, When President Kennedy and the motorcade passed by. Within a few seconds after he had passed me and the motorcade had turned the corner I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot. I started running across Houston Street and down across the lawn to the triple underpass and up the terrace to the railroad yards. I searched along with many other officers, this area, when Sheriff Bill Decker came up and told me and the Officers Sam Webster and Billy Joe Vickery to surround the Texas School Book Depository building. As we approached the two big steel wire gates to the building dock at the back of the building on Elm Street side, we saw that the loading dock had locks on it and I then pulled the steel gates closed and requested of a citizen standing there to see that no-one came out or went in until I could get a uniformed officer there, which he did. Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their office. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with these women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor, and Officers Webster and Vickery went up to the 7th floor. I was the only person on the 6th floor when I searched it and was reasonably sure that there was no one else on this floor as I searched it and then criss-crossed it, seeing only stacks of cartons of books. I was at that time also checking for open windows and fire escapes. I found where someone had been using a skill saw in laying some flooring in one corner of this floor and I then went to the 7th floor and was assisting in searching it out and crawled into the attic opening and decided it was too dark and came down to order flash lights. I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken. The minute that I saw the expended shells on the floor, I hung my head out of the half opened window and signalled to Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz who were outside the building and advised them to send up the Crime Lab Officers at once that I had located the area from which the shots had been fired. At this time, Officers Webster, Victory, and McCurley came over to this spot and we guarded this spot until Crime Lab Officers got upstairs within a matter of a few minutes. We then turned this area over to Captain Fritz and his officers for processing. At this time I continued to search this 6th floor along with many other officers and within a few minutes, I heard Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone holler out that he had found the rifle near the staircase between some rows of cartons. We continued to search the building for a suspect.

Note that Mooney does not mention the lunch prior to discovery of the SN.

McCurley's Report

Officer A. D. McCurley, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Office (Statement 11/22/63)

Officer Jack Faulkner and I, together with several other City officers went to the building and started checking the floors. We were searching the 6th floor when Deputy Sheriff Mooney, who was also on the 6th floor, hollered that he had found the place where the assassin had fired from. I went over and saw 3 expended shells laying by the window that faced onto Elm Street, along with a half-eaten piece of chicken that was laying on a cardboard carton. It appeared as if the assassin had piled up a bunch of boxes to hide from the view of anyone who happened to come up on that floor and had arranged 3 other cartons of books next to the window as though to make a rifle rest. This area was roped off and guarded until Captain Will Fritz of Dallas Police Department Homicide Bureau arrived. It was about this same time that Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone yelled that he had found the rifle which had been placed between some rows of cardboard boxes near the staircase which leads down to the 5th floor.

Officer Jack Faulkner

There were also some chicken bones. Evidently he had chicken for his lunch. There were people that worked with him that had left maybe at noon. I don't know where they went because I didn't investigate that part of it. I've also heard of a bag which carried the rifle, but I never saw that. It could have been there, but I didn't notice it.
From "No More Silence: An Oral History of the Assassination of President Kennedy" - Larry A. Sneed

Officer Roger Craig, Deputy Sheriff
Mr. BELIN - About how soon after they were found did you see them, laying on the floor?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, a couple of minutes. I went right on over there. I was at the far north end of the building. The cartridges were on the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN - Well, how did you know they had been found there? Did someone yell---or what?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; someone yelled across the room that "here's the shells."
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember who that was?
Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't recognize the voice.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then, what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG - I went over there and--uh--didn't get too close because the shells were laying on the ground and there was--uh--oh, a sack and a bunch of things laying over there. So, you know, not to bother the area, I just went back across.
Mr. BELIN - Now, you say there was a sack laying there?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; I believe it was laying on top of a box, if I'm not mistaken.
Mr. BELIN - How big a sack was that?
Mr. CRAIG - It was a paper bag (indicating with hands)--a small paper bag.
Mr. BELIN - Well, the kind-of paper bag that you carry your lunch in?
Mr. CRAIG - Yeah,--uh-huh.

Gerald Hill also recalls the finding of the SN and the Chicken Leg and Bag of top of the SN Boxes

Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.
I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?
Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.
That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.
On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.

At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled down to the street for them to send us the crime lab.

Harry Weatherford

The 11-23-63 report of Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford notes "I came down to the 6th floor, and while searching this floor, Deputy Luke Mooney said "here are some shells." I went over to where he was and saw 3 expended rifle shells, a sack on the floor and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons which was used as a sort of barricade."

Officer Brewer
Mr. BELIN. Did you go and take a look at the cartridge cases?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How many cartridge cases did you see?
Mr. BREWER. Three.
Mr. BELIN. Where were they?
Mr. BREWER. They were there under, by the window.
Mr. BELIN. What window?
Mr. BREWER. In the southeast corner of the building, facing south.
Mr. BELIN. See anything else there at the time by the window?
Mr. BREWER. Paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten piece of chicken, or a piece at chicken.

Officer Haygood
Mr. BELIN. You saw some shells there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them?
Mr. HAYGOOD. They were there under the window.
Mr. BELIN. Which window?
Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. South side or east side?
Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner facing south.
Mr. BELIN. See any paper bags or anything around there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a lunch bag.
Mr. BALL. Where was that?
Mr. HAYGOOD. There at the same location where the shells were.

Eugene Boone

Mentions seeing the chicken before discovering the rifle in his Oral History with the 6th Floor Museum.

Feel free to update your archived discussion accordingly with any my quotes and the link.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 06:01:22 AM by Colin Crow »

Offline David Von Pein

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Quote from: Colin Crow
Feel free to update your archived discussion accordingly with any [of] my quotes and the link.

Thanks.

I'd like to get a working link to what you called "Part 4" of your "Bags & Bones" series. The Part 4 link I have now doesn't work and I can't find a version at the Wayback for that one. (I found Wayback links for Parts 1 thru 3, however, which was nice.)

By any chance, is the text you quoted above the same as some of your "Part 4" article? If so, I could link that on my site as "Part 4", to replace the current dead link.

EDIT: After looking at Colin's synopsis of his "Part 4" article, I assume the above text is not related, because evidently the original "Part 4" pertains to Rowland's & Brennan's statements. But if you (Colin) still have that PART 4 text on your computer, is it possible for you to re-post it on this forum (or maybe in a PDF document I could download)?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 06:31:18 AM by David Von Pein »

Offline Colin Crow

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Thanks.

I'd like to get a working link to what you called "Part 4" of your "Bags & Bones" series. The Part 4 link I have now doesn't work and I can't find a version at the Wayback for that one. (I found Wayback links for Parts 1 thru 3, however, which was nice.)

By any chance, is the text you quoted above the same as some of your "Part 4" article? If so, I could link that on my site as "Part 4", to replace the current dead link.

EDIT: After looking at Colin's synopsis of his "Part 4" article, I assume the above text is not related, because evidently the original "Part 4" pertains to Rowland's & Brennan's statements. But if you (Colin) still have that PART 4 text on your computer, is it possible for you to re-post it on this forum (or maybe in a PDF document I could download)?

David, now that I remember I decided to approach that topic from a different perspective that the original in the thread I quoted from last year. I do have all parts copied but before I can post I would need to update the picture links that relate to the text. I might try and convert each part into a PDF as you suggest.

Offline David Von Pein

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I might try and convert each part into a PDF as you suggest.

That would be great. Thanks. (I've recently gained an added affection for PDF files. I'm not really sure why, but I really like the PDF format for some reason.) :)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 08:55:03 AM by David Von Pein »

Offline Colin Crow

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That would be great. Thanks. (I've recently gained an added affection for PDF files. I'm not really sure why, but I really like the PDF format for some reason.) :)

So do you continue to believe Mooney was mistaken given the weight of evidence of the initial existence of the chicken lunch in the SN?

Offline David Von Pein

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So do you continue to believe Mooney was mistaken given the weight of evidence of the initial existence of the chicken lunch in the SN?

Yes, of course Mooney was mistaken. The proof of that fact is in Bonnie Ray's testimony.

Offline Colin Crow

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Yes, of course Mooney was mistaken. The proof of that fact is in Bonnie Ray's testimony.

And Harry Weatherford was mistaken too....

Harry Weatherford

The 11-23-63 report of Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford notes "I came down to the 6th floor, and while searching this floor, Deputy Luke Mooney said "here are some shells." I went over to where he was and saw 3 expended rifle shells, a sack on the floor and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons which was used as a sort of barricade."

There are another 5 or so who saw remnants of the lunch in the SN before Fritz arrived. Are they all mistaken too?

Perhaps you can point out how Bonnie Ray's testimony proves they were all mistaken.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 11:50:49 AM by Colin Crow »

 

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