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Author Topic: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!  (Read 47113 times)

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2019, 01:10:59 PM »
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Thomas,

Don’t you realize that if one wants or hear from you all they have to do is read Tenant Bagely? Don’t you see that you have kind made yourself irrelevant, and made the name “Bagely” the last name that anyone wants to hear ever again?


Michael,

I believe that those are merely suggestions, made out of sheer and utter desperation, that more open-minded readers will simply not accept.

Regardless, how can you continue to denigrate Tennent H. Bagley (and, in effect, extol false defector Yuri Nosenko and all of the other false defectors and triple agents who tried to support his "bona fides") given the fact that 1) Bagley did not imprison false defector Yuri Nosenko, 2) Bagley did not torture false defector Yuri Nosenko, and 3) Bagley convinced Professor John M. Newman (and venerable Peter Dale Scott through Newman) that false defector Yuri Nosenko was ... a false defector?

You didn't realize that Bagley had convinced Newman and Scott like that until I brought it to your attention about a month ago, yet, even though you do know it now, you continue to spew what amounts to anti-Bagley, anti-Angleton / pro-Nosenko, pro-KGB propaganda here and at the EF.

What's up with that, Michael?

Do you realize how incredibly silly, biased and ... especially with the short, non-responsive replies you tend to make ... desperate you look?

-- MWT  ;)

PS  You've accused me of not answering your questions.

What questions, Michael?

What questions, Michael??
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 09:05:47 PM by Thomas Graves »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2019, 01:10:59 PM »


Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2019, 12:21:28 AM »
Michael,

...you continue to denigrate Tennent H. Bagley (and, in effect, extol false defector Yuri Nosenko and all of the other false defectors and triple agents who tried to support his "bona fides")

 
....you continue to spew what amounts to anti-Bagley, anti-Angleton / pro-Nosenko, pro-KGB propaganda here and at the EF.

.....

Do you realize how incredibly silly, biased and ... especially with the short, non-responsive replies you tend to make ... desperate you look?

-- MWT  ;)


Priceless...

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2019, 01:01:02 AM »
Priceless...

Michael,

Exactly.

Maybe you should print it out and tape it on the ceiling directly over your bed so you can meditate on its wisdom!

Regardless, those replies to me in which you actually use your own words seem to be getting not only less frequent, but shorter and shorter, as well.  Why is that, Michael?

A tangential observation and ... gasp ... a question:

Observation -- You've accused me recently of not answering your questions.

Question -- WHAT questions, Michael??

-- MWT  ;)

PS  How in the world are you ever going to reconcile your "world view" with the fact that a year-and-a-half ago, John Newman, having read Tennent H. Bagley's Spy Wars and Spy Master, convinced none other than Peter Dale Scott that, contrary to what Leonard McCoy, John L. Hart, Bruce Solie and Richards J. Heuer said a long, long time ago, Yuri Nosenko was ... gulp ... a false defector?

Hmm?

I mean, I mean, I mean ... Shouldn't you just "throw in the towel" and get into stamp collecting, or Jeep maintenance ... or something?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 06:11:14 AM by Thomas Graves »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2019, 01:01:02 AM »


Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2019, 06:30:59 PM »
Michael,

 Why the heck should I continue to even communicate with you, knowing, from past experience, that the wisdom and knowledge I try to impart to you more than likely will go "in one ear and out the other"?


It’s not wisdom, it’s dogma. And heading in one ear and out the other is the best path through which dogma can be routed.

To be sure, coming from you, it’s dogma. Coming from PDS or Newman it’s valuable research.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 06:34:25 PM by Michael Clark »

Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2019, 06:55:47 PM »

In the meantime, while 24 of us are still waiting, is it okay if we read Tennent H. Bagley's excellent 35-page PDF, Ghosts of the Spy Wars, in which he mentions your boy Hart's brother-in-arms, Leonard MCCoy, twenty-five times?
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362


It is interesting that in the page you linked there is no mention made of the “Master Plot” or, obviously, “Monster Plot”.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2019, 06:55:47 PM »


Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2019, 06:56:34 PM »




Newman does not think that the KGB or Cuba had anything to do with the JFK Assassination

Newman is not fully convinced of Golitsyn’s Bona Fide’s, neither is Peter Dale Scott.

Newman never mentions Heuer

Newman never mentions Hart

Newman never mentions the Monster or Master Plot
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 09:34:13 PM by Michael Clark »

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2019, 08:35:33 PM »
Newman does not think that the KGB or Cuba had anything to do with the JFK Assassination

Newman is not fully convinced of Golitsyn’s Bona Fide’s, neither is Peter Dale Scott.

Newman never mentions Heuer

Newman never mentions Hart

Newman never mentions the Monster or Master Plot

Michael,

Excellent observations on your part!  (Well, some of them, anyway.)  But please bear in mind -- Newman didn't say the Cubbies was gonna win the World Series this year, neither.

.....

Front-and-center "stage edge" aside to the payin' audience:

What does it really matter that, in the context of our little "debate" about "The Monster Plot," that Newman (probably mistakenly) believes that the evil, evil, evil CIA was solely responsible for the assassination of our beloved president -- whom I was lucky enough to see give a commencement address on "education" at San Diego State College [sic] in June of 1963?

.....

I guess you finally got around to watching both parts (or ... ?).

Regardless, none of the "issues" you raise address the overall point, i.e., that Nosenko was a false defector, sent here to detract from and to contradict what Golitsyn was imperfectly trying, due to his having incomplete information, to tell CIA about a couple of moles -- Edward Ellis Smith, and/or someone in SR Division -- George Kisevalter? Richard Kovich? -- whom HE'D helped KGB to recruit), the never-uncovered cipher clerk "Jack" (recruited in 1949 by Sergei Kondrashev), and oodles and gobs of false defectors/triple agents in U.S. Intelligence, not to mention oodles of gobs of moles, false-defectors and triple-agents in the intelligence services of our allies (France's especially).

In other words, in retrospect there really was something to Golitsyn's "Master Plot," which plot was devised by KGB in 1959, put into effect with the dispatching of GRU colonel Dimitri Polyakov to NYC (the UN) that same year, and "activated" with Polyakov's "volunteering" (after Pekovsky had been brought back to Moscow and "cornered like a bear in its den") to secretly work for the FBI and CIA (but never contributing a dang actionable thang while stationed in the U.S.).

Hey, it may make you feel better vis-a-vis The Assassination that Nosenko's lying about KGB's "not having even interviewed LHO in the USSR" -- i.e., telling CIA what it desperately wanted to hear 7 weeks after the assassination -- was JUST a great "ice breaker" for Nosenko, whether or not the Ruskies were behind the assassination, don't you agree?

Hmm.  Okay.

Just to focus on your boy Heuer for a moment --

A (if not "The") major theme in Heuer's Five Paths to Judgement is that Nosenko was a true defector, gosh darn it, and that he was unjustly accused of being a false one by Bagley and Angleton due to their foolishly and inexpertly applying five analytical "approaches" to his case, and that, concomitantly, all of the "alleged" triple-agents and false defectors (like Kulak, Cherepanov, Loginov and Kochnov, for example) who had effectively vouched for Nosenko's being a true defector were not triple-agents or false defectors at all, but actually pro-CIA good guys, pure-as-the-driven-snow and eminently trustworthy sources for CIA and the FBI!

LOL

Maybe you should watch it again (both parts), and take notes this time.

-- MWT  ;)

PS  You got Newman's "take" on Golitsyn all wrong, Michael.

Newman has no problems with Golitsyn' bona fides per se.

Maybe you should look up the definition of "bona fides" and watch that bit near the end of Part Two, again.

Ask yourself this question: 

How could Newman question Golitsyn's bona fides on the one hand, but so totally accept what Bagley had told him (in Spy Wars and Spy Master) regarding the implications of Golitsyn's insider revelations on the other -- as to cause CTer Newman to ... gasp ... actually agree with Bagley that ... gasp ... Nosenko was a false defector, after all?

LOL

Did you intentionally mis-characterize Newman's opinions of Golitsyn, Michael?

If so, why?

Isn't that sort of thing against Forum rules?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 12:27:28 AM by Thomas Graves »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2019, 08:35:33 PM »


Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2019, 12:49:29 AM »
Note: The title of this thread, right now, is “The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!”

Michael,..............

Excellent observations on your part! 

..............

How could Newman ...... so totally accept what Bagley had told him (in Spy Wars and Spy Master) ....?

John Hart’s “Monster Wars” was not released to the public until November of 2017. Newman’s presentation came on March 3 of 2018. Perhaps he didn’t know about it, hadn’t read it, and perhaps he never read Heuer’s “Nosenko: Five paths to judgement”. He never mentioned either. Unlike you, a credible person would want to maintain credibility with his or her peers by acknowledging the most relevant counter treatments on your subject and address the counterarguments.

You simply refer to anyone who does not agree with you as tinfoil hat wearers, traitors, liars, KGB lovers, buddies of Putin or Stalin or some other-such nonsense.

Newman is not fully convinced of Golitsyn’s Bona Fide’s, neither is Peter Dale Scott.

Newman never mentions Heuer

Newman never mentions Hart

Newman never mentions the Monster or Master Plot
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 12:52:13 AM by Michael Clark »