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Author Topic: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!  (Read 6340 times)

Online Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2019, 06:13:43 AM »
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How do you know that Hart is ďTotally WrongĒ if you have not read his work?

Michael,

I have read all 186 pages of Hart's Monster Plot.

It gave me a headache and made me feel nauseous because in it he says things that only a gullible, wishful-thinking person who was abjectly inexperienced in counterintelligence against the KGB and GRU would say, or even worse, that a KGB or GRU mole in the CIA would say.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, though, and assume that he was just a spiteful and under-endowed dude who didn't know what the hell he was talking about.

Have you read Bagley's 2007 book, Spy Wars, or even watched, in toto, John Newman's two-part Spy Wars presentation from March, 2018?

By the way, why are you so silent about the fact that Newman was so convinced by Bagley's writings that he, in turn, convinced none other than Peter Dale Scott that Bagley was correct in his assessment of Nosenko, i.e., that Nosenko was a false defector sent here to detract from what Anatoliy Golitsyn was telling CIA about possible moles and triple-agents in CIA, the FBI, and in some of our European allies' countries?

Do you think Bagley's writings somehow fooled Newman, and fooled him so thoroughly that Newman himself somehow unwittingly fooled Scott?

Why are you so silent about that, Michael?

Is it too uncomfortable an issue for you to even think about, Bagley-detractor-and-despiser that that you are?  Are you too proud to admit that Bagley must have been right about Nosenko (and Cherepanov and Loginov and Kochnov and Kulak and Polyakov and ...)?

-- MWT  ;)

PS  Do you want me to enumerate, with commentary, everything Hart was wrong about in his magus opus?

I will, but only on one condition -- that you try to rebut -- with your own reasoning and your own words -- every single point I make, ... and we'll do them one-by-one, you and I.  In other words, I ain't going on to the "next" point until you've tried to rebut the one we are on at the time.

Otherwise, why should I knock myself out knowing that you probably won't even read what I've written?

Which reminds me, have you read and understood the ten enumerated points I made about Cherepanov and Loginov, et al., in my long post about Heuer's fallacious Five Paths to Judgement?

Perhaps we should start with that, what do you say, Michael?

As I recall, my very first point was about Cherepanov ...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 01:01:59 PM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2019, 11:49:38 PM »
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Michael,

........

Thomas. Donít you get it? Do you understand that there are those that who want to absorb information, and then there a fan-boys?

Online Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2019, 12:20:00 AM »
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Thomas. Donít you get it? Do you understand that there are those that who want to absorb information, and then there a fan-boys?

Michael,

Unfortunately, there's alway's a ready supply of spiteful, under-endowed, gullible wishful-thinkers (like Heuer, McCoy, Hart, and Solie) who are more than happy to be brainwashed by someone like Yuri Nosenko or James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio, but you're smarter than that, aren't you, so why ally yourself with those losers?

Btw, why are so silent about John Newman's and Peter Dale Scott's epiphanies, compliments of Bagley's Spy Wars and Spy Master, about the true nature of Yuri Nosenko's "bona fides"?

Is it something that you've obliterated from your memory because it's just too doggone painful to contemplate?

Do you really think Bagley so thoroughly fooled Newman as to enable Newman to unwittingly fool Scott into believing Nosenko was a false defector, after all?

Is it something that you simply refuse to talk about in public?

-- MWT  ;)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 12:22:41 AM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2019, 12:34:36 AM »
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Michael,

Unfortunately, there's alway's a ready supply of spiteful, under-endowed, gullible wishful-thinkers (like Heuer, McCoy, Hart, and Solie) who are more than happy to be brainwashed by someone like Yuri Nosenko or James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio, but you're smarter than that, aren't you, so why ally yourself with those losers?

Btw, why are so silent about John Newman's and Peter Dale Scott's epiphanies, compliments of Bagley's Spy Wars and Spy Master, about the true nature of Yuri Nosenko's "bona fides"?

Is it something that you've obliterated from your memory because it's just too doggone painful to contemplate?

Do you really think Bagley so thoroughly fooled Newman as to enable Newman to unwittingly fool Scott into believing Nosenko was a false defector, after all?

Is it something that you simply refuse to talk about in public?

-- MWT  ;)

Thomas, Donít you get that When it comes to dealing with you, I donít answer questions, I ask them? Donít you see that you have set-up this game? Do you think anyone should answer your endless, inane questions, when you answer none?

Online Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2019, 01:02:36 AM »
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Thomas, Donít you get that When it comes to dealing with you, I donít answer questions, I ask them? Donít you see that you have set-up this game? Do you think anyone should answer your endless, inane questions, when you answer none?

Michael,

Edit: Please freshen my memory -- What specific questions about Nosenko and/or the other KGB/GRU false defectors and triple-agents would you like to ask me?

Edit:  What specific questions of yours have I refused to answer?  (That sounds like a spurious accusation on your part, but maybe I've forgotten or overlooked something.)

.......

How can you ask your questions (what questions?) in good faith, and continue to post your de facto KGB-approved articles and "documents," when you realize (as you must surely realize by now) that you neither know what the heck you're talking about nor what you're (unwittingly I'm pretty sure) propagandizing for?

Statement:  If you don't answer questions but only ask them, doesn't that mark you as a "newbie," a stigma that you tried to disassociate yourself from as quickly as possible at the EF about two years ago?

Question:  How do you reconcile, in your own mind, Bagley's, Newman's and Scott's "take" on Nosenko with your own (evidently ongoing) overall hatred/despising/disbelieving of Bagley and anything CIA (other than Kovich, Kisevalter, McCoy, Hart, Solie, Cram, Colby, Agee, and their ilk, of course)?

Question:  If you aren't willing to answer my questions, why, then, do you keep chiming in on my threads and replying to my posts in others? 

To ask questions?  (What questions?)

To demand that I refute something that some spiteful and/or under-endowed CIA officer wrote at least 20 years before Bagley's Spy Wars was published?

To "educate" newbies before I have a chance to "get to" them with my sharing of evil, evil, evil Bagley-and-Angleton's "world view"?

LOL

Why in the world should I knock myself out doing that, when you can find the same darn answers I would give you in "Spy Wars," the 2007 book written by the first guy to interview "walk in" Nosenko in Geneva in 1962 (before probable mole and fluent Russian speaker George Kisevalter barged in to "help" Bagley, even though Golitsyn spoke good English, Bagley understood Russian, and they could communicate with each other just fine), who continued interviewing Nosenko for about five days in Geneva, who later became chief of Soviet Russia Division's Counterintelligence Section, and who not only met with and helped Nosenko "defect" to the U.S. in January 1964, but interrogated (without torturing -- sorry) Nosenko for three years in the U.S., who was, importantly given access to Golitsyn's top-secret file by none other than James Angleton, and who, most importantly, was smart enough and experienced enough to realize, upon reading said file, that there was something very fishy, indeed, about Nosenko's strangely Golitsyn-overlapping but Golitsyn-contradicting ... narrative?

I'm talking about Tennent H. Bagley, of course.  His book 2007 book Spy Wars is very detailed and very well annotated and sourced, so I'm sure that it can answer all of your questions to your probable dissatisfaction, and do so even better than I could -- even though my answers would be based 100 per cent on his book.

--  MWT   ;)


PS  PDS's grudging "confession" come at 34:48, iirc.


PPS  The sixty-four thousand dollar question:  Why the heck should I continue to even communicate with you, knowing, from past experience, that the wisdom and knowledge I try to impart to you more than likely will go "in one ear and out the other"?

That is if it even gets that far.

Hmm?

« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 05:49:41 AM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2019, 10:15:47 AM »
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Michael,....

That is if it even gets that far.

Hmm?


Thomas,

Donít you realize that if one wants or hear from you all they have to do is read Tenant Bagely? Donít you see that you have kind made yourself irrelevant, and made the name ďBagelyĒ the last name that anyone wants to hear ever again?

« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 10:34:50 AM by Michael Clark »

Online Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2019, 01:10:59 PM »
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Thomas,

Donít you realize that if one wants or hear from you all they have to do is read Tenant Bagely? Donít you see that you have kind made yourself irrelevant, and made the name ďBagelyĒ the last name that anyone wants to hear ever again?


Michael,

I believe that those are merely suggestions, made out of sheer and utter desperation, that more open-minded readers will simply not accept.

Regardless, how can you continue to denigrate Tennent H. Bagley (and, in effect, extol false defector Yuri Nosenko and all of the other false defectors and triple agents who tried to support his "bona fides") given the fact that 1) Bagley did not imprison false defector Yuri Nosenko, 2) Bagley did not torture false defector Yuri Nosenko, and 3) Bagley convinced Professor John M. Newman (and venerable Peter Dale Scott through Newman) that false defector Yuri Nosenko was ... a false defector?

You didn't realize that Bagley had convinced Newman and Scott like that until I brought it to your attention about a month ago, yet even though you do know it now, you continue to spew what amounts to anti-Bagley, anti-Angleton / pro-Nosenko, pro-KGB propaganda here and at the EF.

What's up with that, Michael?

Do you realize how incredibly silly, biased and ... especially with the short, non-responsive replies you tend to make ... desperate you look?

-- MWT  ;)

PS  You've accused me of not answering your questions.

What questions, Michael?

What questions, Michael??
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 02:30:55 PM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2019, 12:21:28 AM »
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Michael,

...you continue to denigrate Tennent H. Bagley (and, in effect, extol false defector Yuri Nosenko and all of the other false defectors and triple agents who tried to support his "bona fides")

 
....you continue to spew what amounts to anti-Bagley, anti-Angleton / pro-Nosenko, pro-KGB propaganda here and at the EF.

.....

Do you realize how incredibly silly, biased and ... especially with the short, non-responsive replies you tend to make ... desperate you look?

-- MWT  ;)


Priceless...

Online Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2019, 01:01:02 AM »
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Priceless...

Michael,

Exactly.

Maybe you should print it out and tape it on the ceiling directly over your bed so you can meditate on its wisdom!

Regardless, those replies to me in which you actually use your own words seem to be getting not only less frequent, but shorter and shorter, as well.  Why is that, Michael?

A tangential observation and ... gasp ... a question:

Observation -- You've accused me recently of not answering your questions.

Question -- WHAT questions, Michael??

-- MWT  ;)

PS  How in the world are you ever going to reconcile your "world view" with the fact that a year-and-a-half ago, John Newman, having read Tennent H. Bagley's Spy Wars and Spy Master, convinced none other than Peter Dale Scott that, contrary to what Leonard McCoy, John L. Hart, Bruce Solie and Richards J. Heuer said a long, long time ago, Yuri Nosenko was ... gulp ... a false defector?

Hmm?

I mean, I mean, I mean ... Shouldn't you just "throw in the towel" and get into stamp collecting, or Jeep maintenance ... or something?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 06:11:14 AM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2019, 06:30:59 PM »
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Michael,

 Why the heck should I continue to even communicate with you, knowing, from past experience, that the wisdom and knowledge I try to impart to you more than likely will go "in one ear and out the other"?


Itís not wisdom, itís dogma. And heading in one ear and out the other is the best path through which dogma can be routed.

To be sure, coming from you, itís dogma. Coming from PDS or Newman itís valuable research.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 06:34:25 PM by Michael Clark »

 

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