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Author Topic: First shot reactions  (Read 8497 times)

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #180 on: August 16, 2019, 04:14:54 PM »
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He said "the left turn" not the curve. He had just begun to relax the pressure on the steering wheel when he heard the first shot. The car's front wheels would then gradually go from turning to straightening up.

Mrs. Johnson said they were still rounding the curve. Lyndon Johnson wrote in his 1971 memoir: "Just after our car made the left turn at the top of Elm, I was startled by an explosion." Youngblood testified: "As we were beginning to go down this incline, all of a sudden there was an explosive noise."
That is your editorialzing.  One straightens up after finishing the turn. Do you actually drive a car, Jerry?  Lady Bird did not use the word "still".  She said they were "rounding a curve, going down a hill" (5 H 565).  You are suggesting that means "making a 120 degree turn"? 

In any event, your suggestion does not fit with what the occupants of the VP security car said.  SA Kivett said (18 H 778): "As the motorcade was approximately i/3 of the way to the underpass, traveling between 10 and 15 miles per hour, I heard a loud noise - - - someone hollered "What was that?".   He said that their car had "just turned the corner", as did driver Joe Rich, Clifton Carter, SA Johns and SA Taylor. Clifton Carter said "7 H 474: "our car had just made the lefthand turn off Houston onto Elm Street and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building".  None of that fits with the position of the VP security car at z160, which is just entering the intersection at that time:
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No unusual movements immediately after Z198.
Youngblood's statement is consistent with the movements seen after the car emerges from behind the Stemmons sign at z223 and after.  The point he was making was that he looked around after the first shot and when he looked at the President's car and the Security car he saw abnormal actions.  He had been watching from that position during the entire motorcade so he would have a good idea of what was and what wasn't normal.

It is also worth noting how Youngblood and Lyndon Johnson say he reacted to that first shot.  He told the Johnsons to get down and stepped/"vaulted" over the seat and got on top of the VP.  We can see from Altgens' no. 6 photo that he is facing the back and is in the process of climbing over the seatback by z256 but is not yet on top of the VP:

« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 06:50:46 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #180 on: August 16, 2019, 04:14:54 PM »

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #181 on: August 16, 2019, 08:06:39 PM »
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That is your editorialzing. 

Like when you say both cars are pointing towards the Depository at Z150.

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[One straightens up after finishing the turn.

How stiff is your steering? Maybe junk the old Lada?

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Do you actually drive a car, Jerry? 

When nearing the end of a turn, it's common to ease the turn pressure on the steering wheel and allow the momentum of the car to gradually return the front wheels to straight forward. The system is designed to automatically maintain the front wheels to straight forward; turning is an intervention by the driver.

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Lady Bird did not use the word "still". 

Nitpicking.

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She said they were "rounding a curve, going down a hill" (5 H 565).  You are suggesting that means "making a 120 degree turn"? 

They're back on the curve at the sharp corner. What else could it be? The elongated curves of Elm Street that go to the Underpass? If you "round" that you end up going eastward on Main.

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In any event, your suggestion does not fit with what the occupants of the VP security car said. 

Lady Bird and Jacks were in the VP car.

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SA Kivett said (18 H 778): "As the motorcade was approximately i/3 of the way to the underpass, traveling between 10 and 15 miles per hour, I heard a loud noise - - - someone hollered "What was that?".

I thought he was talking about where the Presidential limousine or Curry's car had gotten to.

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He said that their car had "just turned the corner",

I don't think Kivett said that.

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as did driver Joe Rich,

I just went through their statements a few posts back. Rich said: "We turned off of Houston Street onto Elm Street and that was when I heard the first shot." That doesn't mean he had completed the turn. Could just as well mean they had started into the turn.

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Clifton Carter,

Carter said: "our car had just made the lefthand turn off Houston onto Elm Street and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building noise which sounded like a firecracker." Nothing about nearly having finished the turn. Carter was in the middle of the front seat of a sedan and would have had trouble seeing the Depository by the Z190s.

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SA Johns

He doesn't locate where his car is when the first shot occurred. He describes two shots while being "on a slight downhill curve to the right".

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and SA Taylor.

Taylor said: "Our automobile had just turned a corner". That doesn't mean they had nearly finished the turn. That could as well mean they had just begun the turn.

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Clifton Carter said "7 H 474: "our car had just made the lefthand turn off Houston onto Elm Street and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building".  None of that fits with the position of the VP security car at z160, which is just entering the intersection at that time:

It kind of does, as Carter said "our car had just" and if he meant they had started into the turn. Not only did any actually say they had completed the turn, but they said nothing like rounding a curve or being halfway onto Elm and so forth.

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Youngblood's statement is consistent with the movements seen after the car emerges from behind the Stemmons sign at z223 and after.  The point he was making was that he looked around after the first shot and when he looked at the President's car and the Security car he saw abnormal actions.  He had been watching from that position during the entire motorcade so he would have a good idea of what was and what wasn't normal.

Why is it "consistent" with the Z220s and not the Z160s and Z170s? Youngblood said he saw unusual movement right away.

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It is also worth noting how Youngblood and Lyndon Johnson say he reacted to that first shot.  He told the Johnsons to get down and stepped/"vaulted" over the seat and got on top of the VP.  We can see from Altgens' no. 6 photo that he is facing the back and is in the process of climbing over the seatback by z256 but is not yet on top of the VP:



Those witnesses who said he vaulted over the front seat between shots one and two are probably enhancing his heroics. Not uncommon for Americans.



Aren't you exaggerating a bit when you claim Youngblood "is facing the back and is in the process of climbing over the seatback". I believe we can see some of Youngblood. Surely you're not claiming he's on his hands-and-knees and getting ready to "vault"? LOL. Anything to shoehorn your lamebrain failed theory.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 03:12:48 PM by Jerry Organ »

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #182 on: August 17, 2019, 06:33:14 PM »


Z161 chosen because it's about where people would become aware of a first shot fired a few frames earlier, per LN scenarios generally. Governor Connally begins a rapid rightward head turn a frame later at Z162.



Z191 chosen because it's the last Zapruder frame to show either of the cars. Mason's theory has a first shot about Z195 with a few frames later for perception. I guess the cars would have moved about six-to-ten feet further.

Mary Ann Mitchell and James Crawford were standing together on the SE corner of Elm and Houston.

Mitchell told the Commission: "probably about the time the car in which Senator Yarborough was riding had just passed, I heard some reports." Yarborough was seated on the left-side of the backseat of the VP car. Mitchell's statement works better with 161 than 191. She probably can't see Yarborough in the Z190s.

Crawford told the Commission: "It was after the Secret Service Sedan had gone around the corner that I heard the first report". If Crawford meant the VP Security Car had completed its turn, tehn his statement doesn't literally apply to either 161 or 191. He may mean the car was in the process of turning rather than having completed the turn, if which case his statement works with both 161 and 191.

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #182 on: August 17, 2019, 06:33:14 PM »

Online Thomas Graves

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #183 on: August 17, 2019, 07:17:20 PM »
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Z161 chosen because it's about where people would become aware of a first shot fired a few frames earlier, per LN scenarios generally. Governor Connally begins a rapid rightward head turn a frame later at Z162.



Z191 chosen because it's the last Zapruder frame to show either of the cars. Mason's theory has a first shot about Z195 with a few frames later for perception. I guess the cars would have moved about six-to-ten feet further.

Mary Ann Mitchell and James Crawford were standing together on the SE corner of Elm and Houston.

Mitchell told the Commission: "probably about the time the car in which Senator Yarborough was riding had just passed, I heard some reports." Yarborough was seated on the left-side of the backseat of the VP car. Mitchell's statement works better with 161 than 191. She probably can't see Yarborough in the Z190s.

Crawford told the Commission: "It was after the Secret Service Sedan had gone around the corner that I heard the first report". If Crawford meant the VP Security Car had completed its turn, tehn his statement doesn't literally apply to either 161 or 191. He may mean the car was in the process of turning rather than having completed the turn, if which case his statement works with both 161 and 191.

Jerry,

How do the "statements" of Patricia Ann Donaldson (married name: Lawrence) and Amos Euis in The Lost Bullet fit into your scenario?  If memory serves, what they said tended to suggest that the first shot happened a second or to before Zapruder turned his camera back on at Z-133 (iirc).

Also, which shot do you believe damaged James Tague, down by the Triple Underpass?

-- MWT  ;)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 09:02:39 PM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #184 on: August 17, 2019, 09:21:20 PM »
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Jerry,

How do the "statements" of Patricia Ann Donaldson (née Lambert) and Amos Euis in The Lost Bullet fit into your scenario?  If memory serves, what they said tended to suggest that the first shot happened a second or to before Zapruder turned his camera back on at Z-133 (iirc).

Also, which shot do you believe damaged James Tague, down by the Triple Underpass?

-- MWT  ;)

I was showing the VP and VP Security Cars.

The "Lost Bullet" shows Euins in a location that he is not seen in in the Bell Film. And Donaldson says the limousine (stopped at Z334 Z134) is about where the first shot occurred. That doesn't even support Holland's theory.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 11:32:15 PM by Jerry Organ »

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #184 on: August 17, 2019, 09:21:20 PM »

Online Thomas Graves

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #185 on: August 18, 2019, 12:36:47 AM »
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I was showing the VP and VP Security Cars.

The "Lost Bullet" shows Euins in a location that he is not seen in in the Bell Film. And Donaldson says the limousine (stopped at Z334) is about where the first shot occurred. That doesn't even support Holland's theory.

Jerry,

You're making the very common mistake of conflating journalist Anne Donaldson with Patrician Ann Donaldson (maiden name: Patricia Ann Lambert Lawrence).

Amos Euins was 14 years-old and quite short, and, according to him, he moved from near the curb on Houston over to the short pillar by the reflecting fountain (or whatever it is) as the limo was making the turn onto Elm Street, so it's no surprise that he hasn't been spotted in any of the films (yet).

Rhetorical question: When's the last time you watched The Lost Bullet?

Factoid:  If you watch a clear version of Mark Bell's film and/or Tina Towner's film in slow-motion, you can spot Lambert and her friend Lupe Whittaker (both basically dressed in black) and tall, dressed-in-white Stetson Man (all three of whom are very visible in the Wiegman film), standing on the "island," or maybe in the street just off the tip of the "island," to the right of the TSBD's entrance (from Bell's and Towner's points-of-view).

--  MWT   ;)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 08:35:46 AM by Thomas Graves »

Online Royell Storing

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #186 on: August 18, 2019, 01:12:35 AM »
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Jerry,

You're making the very common mistake of conflating journalist Anne Donaldson with Patrician Ann Donaldson (maiden name: Patricia Ann Lambert).

Amos Euins was 14 years-old and quite short, and, according to him, he moved from near the curb on Houston over to the short pillar by the reflecting fountain (or whatever it is) as the limo was making the turn onto Elm Street, so it's no surprise that he hasn't been spotted in any of the films (yet).

Rhetorical question: When's the last time you watched The Lost Bullet?

Factoid:  If you watch a clear version of Mark Bell's film and/or Tina Towner's film in slow-motion, you can spot Lambert and her friend Lupe Whittaker (both basically dressed in black) and tall, dressed-in-white Stetson Man (all three of whom are very visible in the Wiegman film), standing on the "island," or maybe in the street just off the tip of the "island," to the right of the TSBD's entrance (from Bell's and Towner's points-of-view).

--  MWT   ;)

     Euins told HSCA Investigators that he had a camera with him on 11/22/63 and lost track of it. This late addition to his story makes him an unreliable witness. 

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #186 on: August 18, 2019, 01:12:35 AM »

Online Thomas Graves

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #187 on: August 18, 2019, 01:22:11 AM »
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     Euins told HSCA Investigators that he had a camera with him on 11/22/63 and lost track of it. This late addition to his story makes him an unreliable witness.

Royell,

Maybe he didn't want to have his camera or photos confiscated?

Is a "late addition" the same thing as a "lie" in your book?

--  MWT   ;)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 01:40:12 AM by Thomas Graves »

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #187 on: August 18, 2019, 01:22:11 AM »

Online Bill Chapman

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #188 on: August 18, 2019, 01:23:18 AM »
A few images re Amos from TLB:
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Offline Peter Kleinschmidt

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #189 on: August 18, 2019, 01:28:14 AM »
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Jerry,

You're making the very common mistake of conflating journalist Anne Donaldson with Patrician Ann Donaldson (maiden name: Patricia Ann Lambert).

Amos Euins was 14 years-old and quite short, and, according to him, he moved from near the curb on Houston over to the short pillar by the reflecting fountain (or whatever it is) as the limo was making the turn onto Elm Street, so it's no surprise that he hasn't been spotted in any of the films (yet).

Rhetorical question: When's the last time you watched The Lost Bullet?

Factoid:  If you watch a clear version of Mark Bell's film and/or Tina Towner's film in slow-motion, you can spot Lambert and her friend Lupe Whittaker (both basically dressed in black) and tall, dressed-in-white Stetson Man (all three of whom are very visible in the Wiegman film), standing on the "island," or maybe in the street just off the tip of the "island," to the right of the TSBD's entrance (from Bell's and Towner's points-of-view).

--  MWT   ;)

I have heard 15 yr old, 11 yr old, 7 yr old and now a 14 yr old.  Get ready to be confused


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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #189 on: August 18, 2019, 01:28:14 AM »

 

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