First shot reactions

[Andrew Mason]

Hurchel Jacks, driver of the VP car carrying Vice President Lyndon Johnson and Lady Bird Johnson gave his position at the time of the first shot as follows:

"My car had just straightened up from making the left turn . I was looking directly at the President's car at that time . At that time I heard a shot ring out which appeared to come from the right rear of the Vice President's car." (18 H 801 - the statement is part of CE1024).

We cannot see any of the VP car after z180 and it is hardly discernible after z177.  But Zapruder frames z1 to z64 show a motorcycle making the same turn.  Assuming that the motorcycle is moving at approximately the same speed as the motorcade, the motorcycle turn should give us a reasonable idea of the number of frames required for a vehicle to make the turn. 

We start with the first frame z1 which compares to the VP car position at z133:


The position of the motorcycle 23 frames later at z23 is similar to the position of the VP car at z163 which is 30 frames after z133:


The position of the motorcycle 13 frames later at z36 is similar to the position of the VP car at z172 which is only 9 frames after z163:


I would suggest that the position of the motorcycle at z59 is the earliest frame in which one could conclude that the motorcycle had completed the turn. 


There are different ways to estimate the frame at which the VP car was in the same position as the motorcycle at frame z59.  58 frames after z133 is z191.  z59 is 23 frames after z36 so 23 frames after z172 is z195. But since z172 is 39 frames after z133 and z36 is 35 frames after z1, the VP car may have been moving a bit slower than the motorcycle was.  That would mean that z59 should be equivalent to 58 x 39/36 = 63 frames after z133 or z196.   

On the other hand, moving between positions seen in z23 and z36 for the motorcycle took only 9 frames for the VP car - so maybe after z163 the VP car was moving faster than the motorcycle after z36. Projecting that faster speed through to the VP car equivalent position to z59 would be to add (9/13) x (59-36) = 16 frames to z172 which puts the VP car in the same position at z188 (as the motorcycle at z59).  So the estimated range is anywhere from z188 to z196 as the possible range for the VP car completing the turn. And Jacks said it was just after that, not before.

All the occupants of the VP gave statements that are fully consistent with Jacks' statement that the car had completed the turn and was moving along Elm at the time of the first shot.  None of that fits with an early first shot miss, even without SA Youngblood's recollection after the first shot: " I noticed that the movements in the Presidential car were very abnormal and, at practically the same time, the movements in the Presidential follow-up car were abnormal".

[Jerry Organ]

Hurchel Jacks, driver of the VP car carrying Vice President Lyndon Johnson and Lady Bird Johnson gave his position at the time of the first shot as follows:

"My car had just straightened up from making the left turn . I was looking directly at the President's car at that time . At that time I heard a shot ring out which appeared to come from the right rear of the Vice President's car." (18 H 801 - the statement is part of CE1024).

He said "the left turn" not the curve. He had just begun to relax the pressure on the steering wheel when he heard the first shot. The car's front wheels would then gradually go from turning to straightening up.

We cannot see any of the VP car after z180 and it is hardly discernible after z177.  But Zapruder frames z1 to z64 show a motorcycle making the same turn.  Assuming that the motorcycle is moving at approximately the same speed as the motorcade, the motorcycle turn should give us a reasonable idea of the number of frames required for a vehicle to make the turn. 

We start with the first frame z1 which compares to the VP car position at z133:

The position of the motorcycle 23 frames later at z23 is similar to the position of the VP car at z163 which is 30 frames after z133:

The position of the motorcycle 13 frames later at z36 is similar to the position of the VP car at z172 which is only 9 frames after z163:

I would suggest that the position of the motorcycle at z59 is the earliest frame in which one could conclude that the motorcycle had completed the turn. 

There are different ways to estimate the frame at which the VP car was in the same position as the motorcycle at frame z59.  58 frames after z133 is z191.  z59 is 23 frames after z36 so 23 frames after z172 is z195. But since z172 is 39 frames after z133 and z36 is 35 frames after z1, the VP car may have been moving a bit slower than the motorcycle was.  That would mean that z59 should be equivalent to 58 x 39/36 = 63 frames after z133 or z196.   

On the other hand, moving between positions seen in z23 and z36 for the motorcycle took only 9 frames for the VP car - so maybe after z163 the VP car was moving faster than the motorcycle after z36. Projecting that faster speed through to the VP car equivalent position to z59 would be to add (9/13) x (59-36) = 16 frames to z172 which puts the VP car in the same position at z188 (as the motorcycle at z59).  So the estimated range is anywhere from z188 to z196 as the possible range for the VP car completing the turn. And Jacks said it was just after that, not before.

All the occupants of the VP gave statements that are fully consistent with Jacks' statement that the car had completed the turn and was moving along Elm at the time of the first shot. 

(Animation goes to Z150)

Mrs. Johnson said they were still rounding the curve. Lyndon Johnson wrote in his 1971 memoir: "Just after our car made the left turn at the top of Elm, I was startled by an explosion." Youngblood testified: "As we were beginning to go down this incline, all of a sudden there was an explosive noise."

None of that fits with an early first shot miss, even without SA Youngblood's recollection after the first shot: " I noticed that the movements in the Presidential car were very abnormal and, at practically the same time, the movements in the Presidential follow-up car were abnormal".

Wow. A free one. Thanks!



No unusual movements immediately after Z198.

[Peter Kleinschmidt]

That Hughes film you show at an angle within the animated picture of the motorcade turning onto Elm. My question is about the motorcade in the Hughes film, specifically when you see the VP car before it starts to turn onto Elm, will say before it enters the intersection, maybe a car length away from entering the intersection-- is the driver's door or the left backseat door open? And if so isn't that before the driver says he the loud sound

[Jerry Organ]

That Hughes film you show at an angle within the animated picture of the motorcade turning onto Elm. My question is about the motorcade in the Hughes film, specifically when you see the VP car before it starts to turn onto Elm, will say before it enters the intersection, maybe a car length away from entering the intersection-- is the driver's door or the left backseat door open? And if so isn't that before the driver says he the loud sound

Rear doors partially-opened on Secret Service VP-follow-up-car on Main Street. VP car largely blocked from view but Lady Bird can be seen.

The VP car had no open doors. The SS followup-car behind it had both back doors partially open since at least Main Street, so as to allow agents to more quickly leave the car if they have to. Their testimony has been examined.

Warren Taylor was on the left side in the back seat.

    "Our automobile had just turned a corner (the names of the streets are unknown to me)
     when I heard a bang which sounded to me like a possible firecracker--the sound coming
     from my right rear. Out of the corner of my eye and off slightly to the right rear of our car,
     I noticed what now seems to me might have been a short piece of streamer flying in the
     air close to the ground, but due to the confusion of the moment, I thought that it was a
     firecracker going off.

     As a matter of course, I opened the door and prepared to get out of the car. In the instant
     that my left foot touched the ground, I heard two more bangs and realized that they must
     be gun shots."

Thomas Johns was on the right-side in the back seat.

    "The motorcade had passed through the downtown section of Dallas, and at approximately
     12:35 p.m., CST, I heard two "shots," not knowing whether they were firecrackers, backfire,
     or gun shots. These two shots were approximately two or three seconds apart, and at this
     time we were on a slight downhill curve to the right."

Joe Henry Rich, an officer with the Texas Highway Patrol, was the driver.

    "We turned off of Houston Street onto Elm Street and that was when I heard the first shot.
     I noticed a lot of confusion up ahead of me, motorcycle policemen and in the President's car
     and the President's security car. This Secret Service man in the front seat with me made the
     remark, "What the hell was that" and about that time I heard two more shots. There could
     have been more shots, but I could not say."

Clifton Carter, assistant to LBJ, was seated in the middle of the front seat.

    "At approximately 12:30 p.m., our car had just made the lefthand turn off Houston onto Elm
     Street and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building when I heard a
     noise which sounded like a firecracker. Special Agent Youngblood, who was seated on the
     righthand side of the front seat of Vice President Johnson's car immediately turned and pushed
     Vice President Johnson down and in the same motion vaulted over the seat and covered the
     Vice President with his body. At that instant Mrs. Johnson and Senator Yarborough, who were
     riding in the back seat along with the Vice President, bent forward. Special Agent Youngblood's
     action came immediately after the first shot and before the succeeding shots.

     I distinctly remember three shots. There was an interval of approximately 5 to 6 seconds from
     the first to the last shot, and the three shots were evenly spaced."

Jerry Kivett, SS agent and advance man, was seated on the left-side of the front seat.

    "The motorcade was heading slightly downhill toward an underpass. As the motorcade was
     approximately 1/3 of the way to the underpass, traveling between 10 and 15 miles per hour,
     I heard a loud noise--someone hollered "What was that?" It sounded more like an extremely
     large firecracker, in that it did not seem to have the sharp report of a rifle. As I was looking in
     the direction of the noise, which was to my right rear, I heard another report--then there was no
     doubt in my mind what was happening looked toward the Vice Presidential car, and as I did so,
     I could see the spectators, approximately 25-50, scattering--some were falling to the ground,
     some were running up a small hill, and some were just standing there stunned--here I heard
     the third shot."

[Andrew Mason]

He said "the left turn" not the curve. He had just begun to relax the pressure on the steering wheel when he heard the first shot. The car's front wheels would then gradually go from turning to straightening up.

Mrs. Johnson said they were still rounding the curve. Lyndon Johnson wrote in his 1971 memoir: "Just after our car made the left turn at the top of Elm, I was startled by an explosion." Youngblood testified: "As we were beginning to go down this incline, all of a sudden there was an explosive noise."

That is your editorialzing.  One straightens up after finishing the turn. Do you actually drive a car, Jerry?  Lady Bird did not use the word "still".  She said they were "rounding a curve, going down a hill" (5 H 565).  You are suggesting that means "making a 120 degree turn"? 

In any event, your suggestion does not fit with what the occupants of the VP security car said.  SA Kivett said (18 H 778): "As the motorcade was approximately i/3 of the way to the underpass, traveling between 10 and 15 miles per hour, I heard a loud noise - - - someone hollered "What was that?".   He said that their car had "just turned the corner", as did driver Joe Rich, Clifton Carter, SA Johns and SA Taylor. Clifton Carter said "7 H 474: "our car had just made the lefthand turn off Houston onto Elm Street and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building".  None of that fits with the position of the VP security car at z160, which is just entering the intersection at that time:

No unusual movements immediately after Z198.

Youngblood's statement is consistent with the movements seen after the car emerges from behind the Stemmons sign at z223 and after.  The point he was making was that he looked around after the first shot and when he looked at the President's car and the Security car he saw abnormal actions.  He had been watching from that position during the entire motorcade so he would have a good idea of what was and what wasn't normal.

It is also worth noting how Youngblood and Lyndon Johnson say he reacted to that first shot.  He told the Johnsons to get down and stepped/"vaulted" over the seat and got on top of the VP.  We can see from Altgens' no. 6 photo that he is facing the back and is in the process of climbing over the seatback by z256 but is not yet on top of the VP:

[Jerry Organ]

That is your editorialzing. 

Like when you say both cars are pointing towards the Depository at Z150.

[One straightens up after finishing the turn.

How stiff is your steering? Maybe junk the old Lada?

Do you actually drive a car, Jerry? 

When nearing the end of a turn, it's common to ease the turn pressure on the steering wheel and allow the momentum of the car to gradually return the front wheels to straight forward. The system is designed to automatically maintain the front wheels to straight forward; turning is an intervention by the driver.

Lady Bird did not use the word "still". 

Nitpicking.

She said they were "rounding a curve, going down a hill" (5 H 565).  You are suggesting that means "making a 120 degree turn"? 

They're back on the curve at the sharp corner. What else could it be? The elongated curves of Elm Street that go to the Underpass? If you "round" that you end up going eastward on Main.

In any event, your suggestion does not fit with what the occupants of the VP security car said. 

Lady Bird and Jacks were in the VP car.

SA Kivett said (18 H 778): "As the motorcade was approximately i/3 of the way to the underpass, traveling between 10 and 15 miles per hour, I heard a loud noise - - - someone hollered "What was that?".

I thought he was talking about where the Presidential limousine or Curry's car had gotten to.

He said that their car had "just turned the corner",

I don't think Kivett said that.

as did driver Joe Rich,

I just went through their statements a few posts back. Rich said: "We turned off of Houston Street onto Elm Street and that was when I heard the first shot." That doesn't mean he had completed the turn. Could just as well mean they had started into the turn.

Clifton Carter,

Carter said: "our car had just made the lefthand turn off Houston onto Elm Street and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building noise which sounded like a firecracker." Nothing about nearly having finished the turn. Carter was in the middle of the front seat of a sedan and would have had trouble seeing the Depository by the Z190s.

SA Johns

He doesn't locate where his car is when the first shot occurred. He describes two shots while being "on a slight downhill curve to the right".

and SA Taylor.

Taylor said: "Our automobile had just turned a corner". That doesn't mean they had nearly finished the turn. That could as well mean they had just begun the turn.

Clifton Carter said "7 H 474: "our car had just made the lefthand turn off Houston onto Elm Street and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building".  None of that fits with the position of the VP security car at z160, which is just entering the intersection at that time:

It kind of does, as Carter said "our car had just" and if he meant they had started into the turn. Not only did any actually say they had completed the turn, but they said nothing like rounding a curve or being halfway onto Elm and so forth.

Youngblood's statement is consistent with the movements seen after the car emerges from behind the Stemmons sign at z223 and after.  The point he was making was that he looked around after the first shot and when he looked at the President's car and the Security car he saw abnormal actions.  He had been watching from that position during the entire motorcade so he would have a good idea of what was and what wasn't normal.

Why is it "consistent" with the Z220s and not the Z160s and Z170s? Youngblood said he saw unusual movement right away.

It is also worth noting how Youngblood and Lyndon Johnson say he reacted to that first shot.  He told the Johnsons to get down and stepped/"vaulted" over the seat and got on top of the VP.  We can see from Altgens' no. 6 photo that he is facing the back and is in the process of climbing over the seatback by z256 but is not yet on top of the VP:

Those witnesses who said he vaulted over the front seat between shots one and two are probably enhancing his heroics. Not uncommon for Americans.



Aren't you exaggerating a bit when you claim Youngblood "is facing the back and is in the process of climbing over the seatback". I believe we can see some of Youngblood. Surely you're not claiming he's on his hands-and-knees and getting ready to "vault"? LOL. Anything to shoehorn your lamebrain failed theory.

[Jerry Organ]

Z161 chosen because it's about where people would become aware of a first shot fired a few frames earlier, per LN scenarios generally. Governor Connally begins a rapid rightward head turn a frame later at Z162.



Z191 chosen because it's the last Zapruder frame to show either of the cars. Mason's theory has a first shot about Z195 with a few frames later for perception. I guess the cars would have moved about six-to-ten feet further.

Mary Ann Mitchell and James Crawford were standing together on the SE corner of Elm and Houston.

Mitchell told the Commission: "probably about the time the car in which Senator Yarborough was riding had just passed, I heard some reports." Yarborough was seated on the left-side of the backseat of the VP car. Mitchell's statement works better with 161 than 191. She probably can't see Yarborough in the Z190s.

Crawford told the Commission: "It was after the Secret Service Sedan had gone around the corner that I heard the first report". If Crawford meant the VP Security Car had completed its turn, tehn his statement doesn't literally apply to either 161 or 191. He may mean the car was in the process of turning rather than having completed the turn, if which case his statement works with both 161 and 191.

[Thomas Graves]

Z161 chosen because it's about where people would become aware of a first shot fired a few frames earlier, per LN scenarios generally. Governor Connally begins a rapid rightward head turn a frame later at Z162.



Z191 chosen because it's the last Zapruder frame to show either of the cars. Mason's theory has a first shot about Z195 with a few frames later for perception. I guess the cars would have moved about six-to-ten feet further.

Mary Ann Mitchell and James Crawford were standing together on the SE corner of Elm and Houston.

Mitchell told the Commission: "probably about the time the car in which Senator Yarborough was riding had just passed, I heard some reports." Yarborough was seated on the left-side of the backseat of the VP car. Mitchell's statement works better with 161 than 191. She probably can't see Yarborough in the Z190s.

Crawford told the Commission: "It was after the Secret Service Sedan had gone around the corner that I heard the first report". If Crawford meant the VP Security Car had completed its turn, tehn his statement doesn't literally apply to either 161 or 191. He may mean the car was in the process of turning rather than having completed the turn, if which case his statement works with both 161 and 191.

Jerry,

How do the "statements" of Patricia Ann Donaldson (married name: Lawrence) and Amos Euis in The Lost Bullet fit into your scenario?  If memory serves, what they said tended to suggest that the first shot happened a second or to before Zapruder turned his camera back on at Z-133 (iirc).

Also, which shot do you believe damaged James Tague, down by the Triple Underpass?

-- MWT