First shot reactions

[Andrew Mason]

In her book Tina Towner, page 7, she states: “ ...but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.”

I believe I have seen a video in which she said that the first shot sounded just about the time that she stopped filming. I don’t remember which video. But I will point it out if I come across it again.

Regardless, she didn’t time it with a stopwatch.

She did not time it with a stopwatch. True.  But if she thought it was somewhat longer than one or two, that fits with what about 25 other witnesses said.  If it was one or two seconds, it conflicts with those 25 witnesses. 

I raised this in some discussions on the newsgroup in 2007 about the time of the first shot.  Gary Mack replied with this email in which he stated:

Andrew,

I've known Tina Towner since 1978 and my memory has been that she said
the first shot came just a second or two after she stopped filming.
However, in a March 30, 1996 oral history, Tina said it was four to six
seconds.  So either I have misremembered, which is possible, or her
memory has changed.

What's important is that she stopped filming some seconds before the
shots were fired.  That eliminates the early shot theory held by Max and
Johann.

....

Gary Mack

(the last two paragraphs omitted deal with Croft's statement to Richard Trask that after taking his z162 photo he had time to rewind his camera and run down the street and take another photo which he said was taken at the moment of the first shot. Unfortunately, it turned out blank.)

I have not seen Tina Towner's  March 30, 1996 oral history which is in the Sixth Floor Museum but I am assuming that Gary Mack's account of what she says is accurate.  The 4 to 6 seconds also fits with what she told Trask - that she was getting ready to leave after she stopped filming when she heard the first shot. 

[Andrew Mason]

...


Is Hickey higher up here? He's in the background holding the Colt AR-15. Maybe he's seated on the top of the seat-back.

Yes. That appears to be SA McIntyre in front of him. McIntyre made the trip to Parkland.

The other agent (Bennett) can be compared with this photo, allowing for Bennett's forward lean).

Bennett on the right rear seat is lower than Hickey. This is seen in Betzner (z186) and Willis no. 5. but both are somewhat higher than the occupants of the jump seats (Ken O'Donnell and David Powers).

[Jerry Organ]

She did not time it with a stopwatch. True.  But if she thought it was somewhat longer than one or two, that fits with what about 25 other witnesses said.  If it was one or two seconds, it conflicts with those 25 witnesses.

LOL. It only "conflicts" with your wacky interpretation of them.

I raised this in some discussions on the newsgroup in 2007 about the time of the first shot.  Gary Mack replied with this email in which he stated:

Andrew,

I've known Tina Towner since 1978 and my memory has been that she said
the first shot came just a second or two after she stopped filming.
However, in a March 30, 1996 oral history, Tina said it was four to six
seconds.  So either I have misremembered, which is possible, or her
memory has changed.

What's important is that she stopped filming some seconds before the
shots were fired.  That eliminates the early shot theory held by Max and
Johann.

....

Gary Mack

(the last two paragraphs omitted deal with Croft's statement to Richard Trask that after taking his z162 photo he had time to rewind his camera and run down the street and take another photo which he said was taken at the moment of the first shot. Unfortunately, it turned out blank.)

That's not "Croft's statement to Richard Trask". That's from a characterization in an FBI AirTel about Bronson. It may be accurate; it may not be. Croft in 1988 could not confirm the AirTel: "I really don't know how they came up with what they did so fast. They put things together awful quick."

Neither Croft nor the FBI claimed the blank slide "was taken at the moment of the first shot." Trask terms it: "The report further states that Croft said that he believed his last picture was taken simultaneously with the shot that killed the President." There's a case to be made that Croft's talking about the head shot. But that would mean a shot showing Kennedy twice as far away as he was to Willis at Z137, when Willis took his fifth slide.

Now it might be possible the FBI misunderstood Croft and that he was talking about his Z162 photo as being simultaneous with a shot.

    "Croft told the Powell Tribune for a story published Nov. 26, 1963, that he was 30 feet from
     JFK’s limousine when the shots rang out at around 12:30 p.m. Central Time." ( Link )

Speaking 25 years later, Croft spoke to Trask of being "between the corner and down on the side" while taking pictures. He wasn't very close to the corner when he took his Z162 photo and his two earlier photos were taken at the corner of Main and Houston.

I have not seen Tina Towner's  March 30, 1996 oral history which is in the Sixth Floor Museum but I am assuming that Gary Mack's account of what she says is accurate.

Dale K. Myers cites this email from Gary Mack dated November 21, 2011. "Tina has always said, and we've been good friends since 1978, the first shot came right after she stopped filming. She has always believed the first shot came within a second or two."

So add that to what she said in her book: "...but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming."

And a 2013 Greensville, Texas newspaper account:

    "She said she heard the first shots "about two seconds" after she stopped filming." ( Link )

Not sure how much this influenced her story:

    "I’m told it was about two seconds (before) the first gun shot." ( Link )

She doesn't dispute it. Now you work on her at Facebook to say it could have been as much as four seconds.

The 4 to 6 seconds also fits with what she told Trask - that she was getting ready to leave after she stopped filming when she heard the first shot.

She merely said: "Now I was beginning to leave when I heard the sky fall in."

Does she describe putting her camera away in its case, or something?

[Brian Roselle]

It appears that you and I have come to the same conclusions  (independently) based on the same evidence. And that is a good thing because it tends to confirm each other’s work. I haven’t had any luck viewing the video yet. But the description tells me what it is going to show. Thanks for posting it.

Yes, I think we’re thinking along the same wavelength here. That’s good.

I’m not doing much now on the first shot, but I believe there is still information out there to be mined that supports this, and you may likely find more.  I actually haven’t been real active on any research recently, but when I’ve found some time I have been looking at some “back and to the left” stuff.

Keep up the good research!

[Jerry Organ]

    Again, SA Hickey's high seated position inside the Queen Mary is evident as the car traveled down Houston St. This makes it clear that he was in this elevated position for an extended period of time. It is also apparent that he was Not sitting on the seat back/top of the trunk.

Before Main Street

On Main Street

On Main Street

Hickey is seated normally until late on Main Street. He then repositions to how he appears in Dealey Plaza.

Remember, the AR-15 was locked and loaded on the floor board in front of Hickey. This would have impeded Hickey from putting his feet onto the rear of the jump seat in front of him.

Hickey said: "I did this and had the ammunition clip inserted in the rifle and placed the rifle within easy reach of me." He's hardly going to put it flat on the floor if it has to be "within easy reach". Probably had it vertical and secured between the seat and inside of the car. He said: "I reached to the bottom of the car and picked up the AR 15 rifle" can't be taken literal.

Well, unless Hickey had his feet placed 3 feet high up the back of the jump seat. Highly unlikely, as well as being Highly Uncomfortable for Hickey to do this. Positioning his feet that High up the jump seat in front of him would have pushed Hickey Backward, Not UPward.

Why three feet high? You think the AR-15 was a cannon?

Just a guess on my part, but I think SA Hickey was sitting on Top of something situated on the back seat.

Early Part of Motorcade

On Main Street

Just that when Hickey isn't partially standing, he's seated at a normal height.

Probably something connected to the AR-15 laying on the floorboard only a few feet away.

The AR-15 was normally kept in a storage are behind the front seat that was accessible to the rear compartment.

[Royell Storing]

Before Main Street

On Main Street

On Main Street

Hickey is seated normally until late on Main Street. He then repositions to how he appears in Dealey Plaza.

Hickey said: "I did this and had the ammunition clip inserted in the rifle and placed the rifle within easy reach of me." He's hardly going to put it flat on the floor if it has to be "within easy reach". Probably had it vertical and secured between the seat and inside of the car. He said: "I reached to the bottom of the car and picked up the AR 15 rifle" can't be taken literal.

Why three feet high? You think the AR-15 was a cannon?

Early Part of Motorcade

On Main Street

Just that when Hickey isn't partially standing, he's seated at a normal height.

The AR-15 was normally kept in a storage are behind the front seat that was accessible to the rear compartment.

   SA Hickey filed an Original Report and You claim it "can't be taken literal"?? He's a trained SS Agent and filing an official assassination document for posterity. He reported he reached to the, "BOTTOM of the car and picked up the AR 15 rifle". Based on Hickey's report, there is No denying that he reached Down to the Floorboard of the Queen Mary.
    Do Not forget about the Drive Shaft Hump running along the floorboard of the Queen Mary. This would alter the level/height at which the weapon was situated on the floorboard = the elevation of the feet/legs of Hickey
   

[Charles Collins]

She did not time it with a stopwatch. True.  But if she thought it was somewhat longer than one or two, that fits with what about 25 other witnesses said.  If it was one or two seconds, it conflicts with those 25 witnesses. 

I raised this in some discussions on the newsgroup in 2007 about the time of the first shot.  Gary Mack replied with this email in which he stated:

Andrew,

I've known Tina Towner since 1978 and my memory has been that she said
the first shot came just a second or two after she stopped filming.
However, in a March 30, 1996 oral history, Tina said it was four to six
seconds.  So either I have misremembered, which is possible, or her
memory has changed.

What's important is that she stopped filming some seconds before the
shots were fired.  That eliminates the early shot theory held by Max and
Johann.

....

Gary Mack

(the last two paragraphs omitted deal with Croft's statement to Richard Trask that after taking his z162 photo he had time to rewind his camera and run down the street and take another photo which he said was taken at the moment of the first shot. Unfortunately, it turned out blank.)

I have not seen Tina Towner's  March 30, 1996 oral history which is in the Sixth Floor Museum but I am assuming that Gary Mack's account of what she says is accurate.  The 4 to 6 seconds also fits with what she told Trask - that she was getting ready to leave after she stopped filming when she heard the first shot.

Here is what Tina said in an interview for Global TV Canada for the 50th anniversary of the assassination.

“My recollection is good. It does seem like another life. In some respects it seems like just yesterday. When I say it’s been 50-years, I’m not old enough to be 50-years ago if I was there. But umm, it’s umm, the last few years I spent a lot of time thinking about it because I started writing everything down. I have a lot of files that I kept over the years from when it happened. And so, over the past few years I’ve been looking through the files about conversations and events. And it started becoming fresh again. Almost like reading it for the first time.”

Tina began working on her book in 2009. I plan to purchase the 1996 oral history transcript. I will see what she said and let you know.

[Andrew Mason]

LOL. It only "conflicts" with your wacky interpretation of them.

Tina Towner stopped filming about 1 second before Zapruder re-started filming.  A second after Zapruder restarted filiming (around z150) the VP car and VP security car are both pointing toward the TSBD with the VP followup car somewhere on Houston approaching the intersection. So if that is where the first shot occurred, these witnesses are wrong:

In the VP car (4th in motorcade):
Hurchel Jacks (driver), WC 18 H 801, said "My car had just straightened up from making the left hand turn" when the first shot rang out.
SA Rufus Youngblood, WC 18 H 767, said that the VP car had turned the corner and he observed grassy area to his right before first shot was heard.
Vice-President Lyndon Johnson WC 5 H 562: said he heard the first shot "after we had proceeded a short way down Elm Street"
Lady Bird Johnson, WC 5 H 565: said "we were rounding a curve and going down a hill" when the first shot was heard.
Senator Ralph Yarborough WC 7 H 440: "as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street a rifle shot was heard by me".
Occupants of the VP follow-up car (5th in motorcade) described the moment of the first shot:
Joe Rich. (driver), WC 18 H 800: "I was staying right on his bumper" (of the VP car). "we turned off Houston Street onto Elm Street"
Clifton Carter, WC 7 H 474: "our car had just made the lefthand turn off Houston onto Elm Street and
was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building"
SA Kivett, WC 8 H 778: "The motorcade was heading slightly downhill toward an underpass. As the
motorcade was approximately 1/3 of the way to the underpass.."
SA Johns, WC 18 H 764: "at this time were were on a slight downhill curve to the right"
SA Taylor, (18 H 782): "our automobile had just turned a corner"

Occupants of Mayor Cabell’s car (6th in motorcade) recalled hearing the first shot as follows:
Milton Wright (driver), WC18 H 802: "had just turned onto Elm Street and approximately 30 feet from the intersection"
Earle Cabell, WC 7 H 479, said that he was turned around talking to Rep. Roberts and Mrs. Cabell with the TSBD situated to his back.
Mrs. Cabell, WC 7 H 486, "we were making the turn" ... "I was directly facing [the TSBD]"

In addition, there were at least 20 witnesses who said that JFK reacted to the first shot in a distinct manner that is quite inconsistent with smiling and waving for 2-3 seconds. In addition, you have Hughes, Betzner and Willis and several witnesses along Elm who put the President much farther along Elm than he was at z150.

That's not "Croft's statement to Richard Trask". That's from a characterization in an FBI AirTel about Bronson. It may be accurate; it may not be. Croft in 1988 could not confirm the AirTel: "I really don't know how they came up with what they did so fast. They put things together awful quick."

Neither Croft nor the FBI claimed the blank slide "was taken at the moment of the first shot." Trask terms it: "The report further states that Croft said that he believed his last picture was taken simultaneously with the shot that killed the President." There's a case to be made that Croft's talking about the head shot. But that would mean a shot showing Kennedy twice as far away as he was to Willis at Z137, when Willis took his fifth slide.

Trask interviewed Croft and wrote a whole chapter about him. While he also uncovered an FBI document of an interview with Croft and uses a quote from that, it is inconceivable that Trask would not have confirmed with Croft those details when, for example at p.225 Trask, says that Croft quickly wound his camera as the car went by and took his fourth photo as he heard a shot.  The bottom line is that Trask confirms that Croft took his z162 photo a perceptible amount of time before any shot was heard.

Dale K. Myers cites this email from Gary Mack dated November 21, 2011. "Tina has always said, and we've been good friends since 1978, the first shot came right after she stopped filming. She has always believed the first shot came within a second or two."

You are assuming that Myers gave a complete quote from Gary Mack's email. It is apparent that he omitted the reference that Mack would have given to the 1996 oral history statement.

So add that to what she said in her book: "...but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming."

And a 2013 Greensville, Texas newspaper account:

    "She said she heard the first shots "about two seconds" after she stopped filming." ( Link )

Not sure how much this influenced her story:

    "I’m told it was about two seconds (before) the first gun shot." ( Link )

She doesn't dispute it. Now you work on her at Facebook to say it could have been as much as four seconds.

She merely said: "Now I was beginning to leave when I heard the sky fall in."

Does she describe putting her camera away in its case, or something?

We need to determine why she has given a range of 1 to 6 seconds as the delay between her end of filming and the first shot. Her recollection that she was getting ready to leave when she heard the first shot suggests that the delay was closer to 6 seconds than to 1. Four seconds would put the first shot at about z191.