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Author Topic: First shot reactions  (Read 7200 times)

Online Bill Chapman

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2019, 07:53:58 PM »
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   Still waiting for Anyone to reveal Why SA Hickey is seated so Exceptionally High inside the Queen Mary. His head is higher than the front windshield, and Much higher than everyone else inside the vehicle. Extremely peculiar.

George W. Hickey, Jr., Special Agent, White House Detail, White House garage, United States Secret Service
Activities of SA George W. Hickey, Jr. from the time he arrived at Love Airfield, Dallas, Texas, Thursday, November 21, 1963, to the time he departed from the above Love Airfield, Friday, November 22, 1963
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EXCERPT:

(...)

The motorcade then left the airport and proceeded along the parade route. Just prior to the shooting the Presidential car turned left at the intersection and started down an incline toward an underpass followed by 679X. After a very short distance I heard a loud report which sounded like a firecracker. It appeared to come from the right and rear and seemed to me to be at ground level. I stood up and looked to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it. Nothing caught my attention except people shouting and cheering.

(...)

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2019, 07:53:58 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2019, 09:43:42 PM »
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   Still waiting for Anyone to reveal Why SA Hickey is seated so Exceptionally High inside the Queen Mary. His head is higher than the front windshield, and Much higher than everyone else inside the vehicle. Extremely peculiar.

It appears to me that there are several factors to consider.

The angle of the car as it moves downhill (meaning that the front is lower than the rear). Hence the windshield is lower (relative to the rear seat).

The rear seat is probably raised a little higher than it would be in a “normal car.” If I remember correctly, that limousine was once used for the President. And that feature (raised rear seat) was typical.

Relative to the two agents standing on the running board Hickey is lower (shoulder high). So it doesn’t appear to me that Hickey is standing. The running boards are likely slightly lower than the floorboard of the limousine. Therefore, if Hickey was standing, he should be about the same height as McIntyre.


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2019, 09:51:01 PM »
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   Still waiting for Anyone to reveal Why SA Hickey is seated so Exceptionally High inside the Queen Mary. His head is higher than the front windshield, and Much higher than everyone else inside the vehicle. Extremely peculiar.
SA Hickey appears to be either sitting on a very high booster seat or he is partially standing from at least as early as z138.  His head is higher than others who are seated but lower than the agents standing on the running boards.  At around z150 he begins to lean over to the left and looks to the left and down.  He appears to be trying to look at something or someone through the space between McIntyre and Clint Hill, perhaps the left rear motorcycle outrider.  He is not extended outside the car so he can't be looking at tires. 

He appears to stop leaning left by z175 but keeps looking left (head turned left) as is seen in Betzner's photo at z186 (which Betzner indicated was before he heard a shot).   He then starts to rise after z198 until z207 which is the last zframe in which he is seen.  This can be seen as an increase in the amount of his chest/white shirt that is visible above the central roof support bar.  It can also be seen in the difference in his height between Betzner (z186) and Willis No. 5 (z202).  By z202 (Willis 5) he is looking forward.  By z256 (Altgens no. 6) he is looking to the rear.  We cannot see him between z207 and z256 or after z256. 

According to his evidence Hickey turned around to face forward before the second shot and remained facing forward until after the third shot as he states he was looking at the President on both those shots.  He said he thought the second shot did not strike the President because all that he could see was the hair on the right side of his head lift up.  He said that he saw the third shot strike him in the head.

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2019, 09:51:01 PM »

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2019, 12:13:02 AM »
   

By Z170, Hickey largely straightens up from his severe lean during the Z150s and early-Z160s. Though looking to his left, this could be where Hickey is looking rearward and seeing "people shouting and cheering". Mrs. Kennedy was looking directly at the crowd where Croft and Willis was. Hickey's Nov. 22nd report said nothing about looking to his right and that he only partially corrected his lean: "I stood partially up and turned to the rear to see if I could observe anything."



Doesn't seem to be much "shouting and cheering" when he looks back again in Altgens. Hickey could have thought he looked to his right earlier (Z170s) because that's where he said the shot came from.

   

Hickey's sharp turn to the front occurs at Z195. If it was a direct response to hearing a shot fired from the SN, it would mean a shot occurred four frames-or-so before (ca. Z188-91).

Offline Royell Storing

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2019, 04:58:13 AM »
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George W. Hickey, Jr., Special Agent, White House Detail, White House garage, United States Secret Service
Activities of SA George W. Hickey, Jr. from the time he arrived at Love Airfield, Dallas, Texas, Thursday, November 21, 1963, to the time he departed from the above Love Airfield, Friday, November 22, 1963
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EXCERPT:

(...)

The motorcade then left the airport and proceeded along the parade route. Just prior to the shooting the Presidential car turned left at the intersection and started down an incline toward an underpass followed by 679X. After a very short distance I heard a loud report which sounded like a firecracker. It appeared to come from the right and rear and seemed to me to be at ground level. I stood up and looked to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it. Nothing caught my attention except people shouting and cheering.

(...)

     SA Hickey is seen in his Very High position as the JFK Limo travels down Houston St. This is Well Before we see him on the Zapruder Film, & Before shots were fired.

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2019, 04:58:13 AM »

Online Ray Mitcham

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2019, 09:10:40 AM »
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Appears to be a concrete pillar, tree trunk and first floor of the Depository.
Thanks, Jerry. I realised that after I had posted my request. That's why I deleted it.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2019, 02:06:32 PM »
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Additional evidence (that can be pretty accurately clocked) to counter your opinion:

Harkness suddenly turns from his duty of controlling the Main Street/Houston Street intersection and looking intently for something in the direction of the presidential limo.

Hughes' film shows he lifted his finger enough to stop the camera for six frames (a very brief 0.3 seconds, very unusual and could be indicative of a reaction to the first shot). Simultaneously, the Dorman film shows an extremely blurred frame then stops for 49 frames.
Hughes said he stopped filming just before the first shot. He continued filming to about frame z187.

Quote
Tina Towner film stopped just before the unusual Hughes and Dorman films' anomalies. Tina has said she stopped filming just before the first shot.
Tina Towner was interviewed by Richard Trask who quotes her (p. 217 Pictures of the Pain) as saying  that after she stopped filming "now I was beginning to leave  when I heard the sky fall in - the loudest crack of a rifle I had ever heard".  I believe that she provided a statement for the Sixth Floor Museum in which she said the first shot was 4-6 seconds after she stopped filming.  She has a facebook page related to the assassination: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Quote
The observant Howard Brennan said in his 11/22/63 affidavit that JFK's back was inline with the last window of the TSBD when the first shot occurred. From Brennan's position this puts JFK inline with those windows at just before Z133.
Or that means that he was opposite those windows, not between those windows and Brennan.

Quote
Rosemary Willis suddenly turns her head over her right shoulder and looks back in the direction of the TSBD just after Z133 and begins to slow (in order to stop). She has said that she did just that.
She stopped at z198.
[/quote]

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2019, 02:06:32 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2019, 10:00:00 PM »
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Tina Towner was interviewed by Richard Trask who quotes her (p. 217 Pictures of the Pain) as saying  that after she stopped filming "now I was beginning to leave  when I heard the sky fall in - the loudest crack of a rifle I had ever heard".  I believe that she provided a statement for the Sixth Floor Museum in which she said the first shot was 4-6 seconds after she stopped filming.  She has a facebook page related to the assassination: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login



In her book Tina Towner, page 7, she states: “ ...but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.”

I believe I have seen a video in which she said that the first shot sounded just about the time that she stopped filming. I don’t remember which video. But I will point it out if I come across it again.

Regardless, she didn’t time it with a stopwatch.

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2019, 10:00:00 PM »

Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2019, 02:44:05 PM »
Good find Charles. Tina Towner apparently stopped her filming in front of the TSBD in perhaps just under 1 second before Z133 started.  If she recalled the shot happening within about a second just after stopping filming, this would put the limo in the same position as the last anchored testimony study I looked at, which placed the limo position at the time of the first shot in a position it would have been about ˝ second before z133.

Related to first shot reactions, one can independently look at Dorman’s filming in front of the TSBD at this time. I think Charles also commented on Dorman earlier in the thread, but this link may help visualize having a synchronized video to the Zapruder film for reference. It also has the video with a superimposed shot ˝ second before z133 which to me appeared very telling. Make sure your audio is turned up to hear the background sounds.

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sites.google.com/view/dorman-zapruder-sync-on-elm-st/home

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2019, 07:24:51 PM »
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   Still waiting for Anyone to reveal Why SA Hickey is seated so Exceptionally High inside the Queen Mary. His head is higher than the front windshield, and Much higher than everyone else inside the vehicle. Extremely peculiar.

Andrew Mason suggested Hickey was partially standing. This is my 3D interpretation.


(TinyPic is closing this year (2019) so this image may not be appearing
Maybe his feet are braced against the jump-seat in front of him.



Is Hickey higher up here? He's in the background holding the Colt AR-15. Maybe he's seated on the top of the seat-back.



The other agent (Bennett) can be compared with this photo, allowing for Bennett's forward lean).


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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2019, 07:24:51 PM »

 

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