First shot reactions

[Thomas Graves]

And there is more

Dear Peter,

Maybe in the excitement, Euins conflated the skin color of the two black guys leaning out of the 5th floor windows with the hard-to-see(?) skin color of the guy holding the "pipe" out of the Sniper's Nest window.

                       -- or --

Maybe the people who took his report got it wrong.

Who knows?

(BFD)

I still think he's a reliable witness, in The Lost Bullet, as to where the limo was when the first shot rang out, i.e., a little bit past the black-and white freeway signs on that sign post on the "island," which just happens to correlate with what Patricia Ann Donaldson (maiden name: Lawrence; standing on the tip of the "island" or in the street near it) says in The Lost Bullet.

--  MWT   

[Peter Kleinschmidt]

Dear Peter,

Maybe in the excitement, Euins conflated the skin color of the two black guys leaning out of the 5th floor windows with the hard-to-see(?) skin color of the guy holding the "pipe" out of the Sniper's Nest window.

                       -- or --

Maybe the people who took his report got it wrong.

Who knows?

(BFD)

I still think he's a reliable witness, in The Lost Bullet, as to where the limo was when the first shot rang out, i.e., a little bit past the black-and white freeway signs on that sign post on the "island," which just happens to correlate with what Patricia Ann Donaldson (maiden name: Lawrence; standing on the tip of the "island" or in the street near it) says in The Lost Bullet.

--  MWT   

Look at him, he looks like CIA without question

[Thomas Graves]

Look at him, he looks like CIA without question

You're so funny.

Funny strange.

[Jerry Organ]

Jerry,

You're making the very common mistake of conflating journalist Anne Donaldson with Patrician Ann Donaldson (maiden name: Patricia Ann Lambert Lawrence).

Here's the person I'm talking about. The program identified her as Patricia Ann Donaldson. She's not standing where Anne Donaldson stood.


^{Capture from "Lost Bullet"; program flipped image horizontally.}

Amos Euins was 14 years-old and quite short, and, according to him, he moved from near the curb on Houston over to the short pillar by the reflecting fountain (or whatever it is) as the limo was making the turn onto Elm Street, so it's no surprise that he hasn't been spotted in any of the films (yet).

It's a matter of Euins' line-of-sight to the limousine relative to background objects. In the "Lost Bullet", his reenactment of his movements had his curb position significantly south of where he marked it on CE 365. Furthermore, the program places the limousine for the first shot on Euins' perspective from beside the pool. If we move Euins' to his 1964 curbside location then that changes his perspective to the limousine relative to background objects.

Euins refers to three background objects:

• "about the time the car got near the black and white sign" ('63)
  (presumed to be referring to the Thornton freeway sign; the program
  did not duplicate the sign)
  
• 
  "It was just right there – at the embankment right there – about
  where it’s at right now when the first shot sounded out" (2011)
  
• "Right as it passed – like I say – that - that big pillar - pillar there" (2011)

Rhetorical question: When's the last time you watched The Lost Bullet?

To address your earlier post, I watched some portions concerning Euins and Donaldson. I don't know when I last watched the full documentary.

Factoid:  If you watch a clear version of Mark Bell's film and/or Tina Towner's film in slow-motion, you can spot Lambert and her friend Lupe Whittaker (both basically dressed in black) and tall, dressed-in-white Stetson Man (all three of whom are very visible in the Wiegman film), standing on the "island," or maybe in the street just off the tip of the "island," to the right of the TSBD's entrance (from Bell's and Towner's points-of-view).

--  MWT   

What does "MWT" mean?

[Bill Chapman]

What does "MWT" mean?

Mudd [sic] Wrassler Tommy

Guess he likes slippery babes
(And who wouldn't?)

[Thomas Graves]

Mudd [sic] Wrassler Tommy

Guess he likes slippery babes
(And who wouldn't?)

Bill and Jerry,

That, and because James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum posted some time ago that Duncan's forum "is for mud wrestlers," or words to that effect.

-- MWT   

[Thomas Graves]

Here's the person I'm talking about. The program identified her as Patricia Ann Donaldson. She's not standing where Anne Donaldson stood.


^{Capture from "Lost Bullet"; program flipped image horizontally.}

It's a matter of Euins' line-of-sight to the limousine relative to background objects. In the "Lost Bullet", his reenactment of his movements had his curb position significantly south of where he marked it on CE 365. Furthermore, the program places the limousine for the first shot on Euins' perspective from beside the pool. If we move Euins' to his 1964 curbside location then that changes his perspective to the limousine relative to background objects.

Euins refers to three background objects:

• "about the time the car got near the black and white sign" ('63)
  (presumed to be referring to the Thornton freeway sign; the program
  did not duplicate the sign)
  
• 
  "It was just right there – at the embankment right there – about
  where it’s at right now when the first shot sounded out" (2011)
  
• "Right as it passed – like I say – that - that big pillar - pillar there" (2011)

Jerry,

Yes, that's the Donaldson I was referring to.

I'm still a bit confused by your earlier post:

I was showing the VP and VP Security Cars.

The "Lost Bullet" shows Euins in a location that he is not seen in in the Bell Film. And Donaldson says the limousine (stopped at Z334) is about where the first shot occurred. That doesn't even support Holland's theory.


What do you mean by "stopped at Z334" in the context of what the above-pictured "Patricia Ann Donaldson" and Amos Euins said in The Lost Bullet?

Thanks.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy   

PS  In an earlier post, I got her maiden name wrong.  It was "Lawrence," not "Lambert". (since edited)

My bad.


Edit:

At 42:19 Euins is standing by "the pillar," pointing to the limo in the background, and agreeing with Holland that that's approximately where the limo was when Euins heard the first shot.  (The limo has just passed by the black-and-white "Hwy 80" signs which are clustered on a pole on the "island" and are out of view in the "frame".)

Euins' and Donaldson's statements in The Lost Bullet (as to where the limo was when the first shot rang out) tend to corroborate and support each other.

[Jerry Organ]

Jerry,

Yes, that's the Donaldson I was referring to.

I'm still a bit confused by your earlier post:

I was showing the VP and VP Security Cars.

The "Lost Bullet" shows Euins in a location that he is not seen in in the Bell Film. And Donaldson says the limousine (stopped at Z334) is about where the first shot occurred. That doesn't even support Holland's theory.


What do you mean by "stopped at Z334" in the context of what the above-pictured "Patricia Ann Donaldson" and Amos Euins said in The Lost Bullet?

Thanks.

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy   

PS  In an earlier post, I got her maiden name wrong.  It was "Lawrence," not "Lambert". (since edited)

My bad.

Sorry. Z334 should read Z134. The position in "JFK: The Lost Bullet" where the limousine is stopped for PA Donaldson and Euins to give their comments corresponds to about Z134 (per Dale K Myers). The documentary does not mention that. Where did you think the "Lost Bullet" limousine was stopped for PA Donaldson/Euins?



To get the limousine into position for Holland's first-shot theory, the limousine would have to roll back 1.5 seconds.

Edit:

At 42:19 Euins is standing by "the pillar," pointing to the limo in the background, and agreeing with Holland that that's approximately where the limo was when Euins heard the first shot.  (The limo has just passed by the black-and-white "Hwy 80" signs which are clustered on a pole on the "island" and are out of view in the "frame".)

Euins' and Donaldson's statements in The Lost Bullet (as to where the limo was when the first shot rang out) tend to corroborate and support each other.

About all the two "corroborate" is that the limousine at Z134 is about in the general area when the first shot occurred (Euins: "about where it's at right now" "right as it passed"; PA Donaldson: "approx where - I - the car was in this position when I heard the first shot"). Thing are so vague it could be a second or two after Z134, Earlier than Z134, I don't see so easily.

Holland instead makes it sound like something precise is occurring. Holland claims Euins could locate the limousine "at a specific point in time, just as the president passed a black and white sign" (when he says that, in the background the limousine is stopped where his theory would have it). The only black and white sign Euins ever specifically referenced was the one in 1963 that is presumed to be the Thornton freeway sign. Euins said the car "got near" the sign, not (per Holland) had "passed" it.

And I don't hear Euins say the first shot occurred "just as" the limousine passed the sign cluster. Holland says that. We're not told why Euins is talking about the sign cluster; yes, he is pointing to it, but why? Because Holland said Euins said the limousine had just passed the sign cluster? Sure, Holland would love to have Euins say the first shot occurred as the car passed the sign cluster because that gets the car back to beneath the traffic light sign arm.

Almost like witness tampering? How conservative is Max Holland? Is he getting pointers from Fox News?