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Author Topic: First shot reactions  (Read 9890 times)

Offline Royell Storing

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #170 on: August 10, 2019, 01:59:57 AM »
Please cite. What book or website did you get this gem from?

Connally's radial nerve was damaged (it supplies sensation to the back of the hand). Undamaged was the median nerve which allows the thumb and fingers to oppose each other, and the forearm to rise up. The sensation of the bullet through the wrist could have stimulated the median nerve and caused the forearm to spring up, like they've been showing you.

     So you want a book or website yet You provide None yourself? Pot meet kettle. Plus, now you are playing the Should/Woulda game with relation to a Possible? forearm "spring up". More Pot meet Kettle. And then, what about the metal fragments remaining in the thigh area? Another convenient Omission that serves your purpose.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 02:05:23 AM by Royell Storing »

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #170 on: August 10, 2019, 01:59:57 AM »

Online Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #171 on: August 10, 2019, 02:12:52 AM »
     So you want a book or website yet You provide None yourself?

LOL! You're some "researcher". If you want the very common and readily-available Sam Holland quotes, just search for Sam Holland and tack on a few words from the quote.

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Pot meet kettle. Plus, now you are playing the Should/Woulda game with relation to a possible forearm "spring up". More Pot meet Kettle.

You think I'm going to provide a citation for what the median nerve does?

Be a whole lot quicker for you to provide the sole source in the world for Connally's "Tendon Severed that controls his thumb".

Offline Royell Storing

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #172 on: August 10, 2019, 03:31:25 AM »
LOL! You're some "researcher". If you want the very common and readily-available Sam Holland quotes, just search for Sam Holland and tack on a few words from the quote.

You think I'm going to provide a citation for what the median nerve does?

Be a whole lot quicker for you to provide the sole source in the world for Connally's "Tendon Severed that controls his thumb".

     Non Responsive. Including your Omitting the bullet fragments in the thigh of Connally. Even Humes was on-the-record as Not buying into the SBT. Of course, he was well aware of the fragments in the thigh.

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #172 on: August 10, 2019, 03:31:25 AM »

Online Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #173 on: August 10, 2019, 01:08:42 PM »
     Non Responsive. Including your Omitting the bullet fragments in the thigh of Connally. Even Humes was on-the-record as Not buying into the SBT. Of course, he was well aware of the fragments in the thigh.

Hold on. You just made the discussion change direction in mid-air.

Online Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #174 on: August 11, 2019, 04:54:17 PM »
The view on the left is taken in my Sketchup model viewed from close to the car on Zapruder's sightline, so the front of the car appears closer to the viewer than the rear of the car.    Zapruder was using a zoom lens from about 120 feet away so the difference in distance from the viewer to the front and to the rear is not as much. So the perspective and angles appear different. You better than anyone should understand that.

Here is the view from Zapruder's position:




   

Shouldn't the upright lines on the walls by the reflecting pool be more true to vertical?

And doesn't the Stemmons sign lean the opposite way and should it be bigger? Maybe it doesn't matter if only camera-left post-top is relevant to line-of-sight.

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Here is a view along the same sightline from up close - a few feet away from the front bumper.



It is the same drawing with the same trajectory angle. Nothing has changed except the position of the viewer along the sightline from Zapruder.

   

Shouldn't there be some space (relative to Zapruder's view) between Kennedy and Connally? In your model they overlap, whether in the near-view or far-view. I model Z193 because it's clearer than other frames in the mid-Z190s and there were no major changes in position during that time. In my model: right-to-left: about 13 degrees; slope: about 22 degrees.

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #174 on: August 11, 2019, 04:54:17 PM »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #175 on: August 13, 2019, 10:22:28 PM »


Shouldn't the upright lines on the walls by the reflecting pool be more true to vertical?
Yes. You are right.  I have corrected the model here:



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And doesn't the Stemmons sign lean the opposite way and should it be bigger? Maybe it doesn't matter if only camera-left post-top is relevant to line-of-sight.
I don't have the exact dimensions of the Stemmons sign. I have made the Stemmons sign 5 ft wide.


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Shouldn't there be some space (relative to Zapruder's view) between Kennedy and Connally? In your model they overlap, whether in the near-view or far-view. I model Z193 because it's clearer than other frames in the mid-Z190s and there were no major changes in position during that time. In my model: right-to-left: about 13 degrees; slope: about 22 degrees.
My JFK model is a bit too large and inflexible.  I could use a better JFK model.  The separation depends on the angle and it is difficult to compare the poor resolution shot from a distance, which approximates Zapruder's viewpoint.

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #176 on: August 15, 2019, 08:53:08 PM »
Hurchel Jacks, driver of the VP car carrying Vice President Lyndon Johnson and Lady Bird Johnson gave his position at the time of the first shot as follows:

"My car had just straightened up from making the left turn . I was looking directly at the President's car at that time . At that time I heard a shot ring out which appeared to come from the right rear of the Vice President's car." (18 H 801 - the statement is part of CE1024).

We cannot see any of the VP car after z180 and it is hardly discernible after z177.  But Zapruder frames z1 to z64 show a motorcycle making the same turn.  Assuming that the motorcycle is moving at approximately the same speed as the motorcade, the motorcycle turn should give us a reasonable idea of the number of frames required for a vehicle to make the turn. 

We start with the first frame z1 which compares to the VP car position at z133:


The position of the motorcycle 23 frames later at z23 is similar to the position of the VP car at z163 which is 30 frames after z133:


The position of the motorcycle 13 frames later at z36 is similar to the position of the VP car at z172 which is only 9 frames after z163:


I would suggest that the position of the motorcycle at z59 is the earliest frame in which one could conclude that the motorcycle had completed the turn. 


There are different ways to estimate the frame at which the VP car was in the same position as the motorcycle at frame z59.  58 frames after z133 is z191.  z59 is 23 frames after z36 so 23 frames after z172 is z195. But since z172 is 39 frames after z133 and z36 is 35 frames after z1, the VP car may have been moving a bit slower than the motorcycle was.  That would mean that z59 should be equivalent to 58 x 39/36 = 63 frames after z133 or z196.   

On the other hand, moving between positions seen in z23 and z36 for the motorcycle took only 9 frames for the VP car - so maybe after z163 the VP car was moving faster than the motorcycle after z36. Projecting that faster speed through to the VP car equivalent position to z59 would be to add (9/13) x (59-36) = 16 frames to z172 which puts the VP car in the same position at z188 (as the motorcycle at z59).  So the estimated range is anywhere from z188 to z196 as the possible range for the VP car completing the turn. And Jacks said it was just after that, not before.

All the occupants of the VP gave statements that are fully consistent with Jacks' statement that the car had completed the turn and was moving along Elm at the time of the first shot.  None of that fits with an early first shot miss, even without SA Youngblood's recollection after the first shot: " I noticed that the movements in the Presidential car were very abnormal and, at practically the same time, the movements in the Presidential follow-up car were abnormal".
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 08:57:44 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #176 on: August 15, 2019, 08:53:08 PM »

Online Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #177 on: August 16, 2019, 03:36:55 AM »
Hurchel Jacks, driver of the VP car carrying Vice President Lyndon Johnson and Lady Bird Johnson gave his position at the time of the first shot as follows:

"My car had just straightened up from making the left turn . I was looking directly at the President's car at that time . At that time I heard a shot ring out which appeared to come from the right rear of the Vice President's car." (18 H 801 - the statement is part of CE1024).

He said "the left turn" not the curve. He had just begun to relax the pressure on the steering wheel when he heard the first shot. The car's front wheels would then gradually go from turning to straightening up.

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We cannot see any of the VP car after z180 and it is hardly discernible after z177.  But Zapruder frames z1 to z64 show a motorcycle making the same turn.  Assuming that the motorcycle is moving at approximately the same speed as the motorcade, the motorcycle turn should give us a reasonable idea of the number of frames required for a vehicle to make the turn. 

We start with the first frame z1 which compares to the VP car position at z133:

The position of the motorcycle 23 frames later at z23 is similar to the position of the VP car at z163 which is 30 frames after z133:

The position of the motorcycle 13 frames later at z36 is similar to the position of the VP car at z172 which is only 9 frames after z163:

I would suggest that the position of the motorcycle at z59 is the earliest frame in which one could conclude that the motorcycle had completed the turn. 

There are different ways to estimate the frame at which the VP car was in the same position as the motorcycle at frame z59.  58 frames after z133 is z191.  z59 is 23 frames after z36 so 23 frames after z172 is z195. But since z172 is 39 frames after z133 and z36 is 35 frames after z1, the VP car may have been moving a bit slower than the motorcycle was.  That would mean that z59 should be equivalent to 58 x 39/36 = 63 frames after z133 or z196.   

On the other hand, moving between positions seen in z23 and z36 for the motorcycle took only 9 frames for the VP car - so maybe after z163 the VP car was moving faster than the motorcycle after z36. Projecting that faster speed through to the VP car equivalent position to z59 would be to add (9/13) x (59-36) = 16 frames to z172 which puts the VP car in the same position at z188 (as the motorcycle at z59).  So the estimated range is anywhere from z188 to z196 as the possible range for the VP car completing the turn. And Jacks said it was just after that, not before.

All the occupants of the VP gave statements that are fully consistent with Jacks' statement that the car had completed the turn and was moving along Elm at the time of the first shot. 


(Animation goes to Z150)

Mrs. Johnson said they were still rounding the curve. Lyndon Johnson wrote in his 1971 memoir: "Just after our car made the left turn at the top of Elm, I was startled by an explosion." Youngblood testified: "As we were beginning to go down this incline, all of a sudden there was an explosive noise."

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None of that fits with an early first shot miss, even without SA Youngblood's recollection after the first shot: " I noticed that the movements in the Presidential car were very abnormal and, at practically the same time, the movements in the Presidential follow-up car were abnormal".

Wow. A free one. Thanks!



No unusual movements immediately after Z198.

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #177 on: August 16, 2019, 03:36:55 AM »

Offline Peter Kleinschmidt

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #178 on: August 16, 2019, 04:00:17 AM »
That Hughes film you show at an angle within the animated picture of the motorcade turning onto Elm. My question is about the motorcade in the Hughes film, specifically when you see the VP car before it starts to turn onto Elm, will say before it enters the intersection, maybe a car length away from entering the intersection-- is the driver's door or the left backseat door open? And if so isn't that before the driver says he the loud sound

Online Jerry Organ

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #179 on: August 16, 2019, 02:52:54 PM »
That Hughes film you show at an angle within the animated picture of the motorcade turning onto Elm. My question is about the motorcade in the Hughes film, specifically when you see the VP car before it starts to turn onto Elm, will say before it enters the intersection, maybe a car length away from entering the intersection-- is the driver's door or the left backseat door open? And if so isn't that before the driver says he the loud sound


Rear doors partially-opened on Secret Service VP-follow-up-car on Main Street. VP car largely blocked from view but Lady Bird can be seen.

The VP car had no open doors. The SS followup-car behind it had both back doors partially open since at least Main Street, so as to allow agents to more quickly leave the car if they have to. Their testimony has been examined.

Warren Taylor was on the left side in the back seat.

    "Our automobile had just turned a corner (the names of the streets are unknown to me)
     when I heard a bang which sounded to me like a possible firecracker--the sound coming
     from my right rear. Out of the corner of my eye and off slightly to the right rear of our car,
     I noticed what now seems to me might have been a short piece of streamer flying in the
     air close to the ground, but due to the confusion of the moment, I thought that it was a
     firecracker going off.

     As a matter of course, I opened the door and prepared to get out of the car. In the instant
     that my left foot touched the ground, I heard two more bangs and realized that they must
     be gun shots."

Thomas Johns was on the right-side in the back seat.

    "The motorcade had passed through the downtown section of Dallas, and at approximately
     12:35 p.m., CST, I heard two "shots," not knowing whether they were firecrackers, backfire,
     or gun shots. These two shots were approximately two or three seconds apart, and at this
     time we were on a slight downhill curve to the right."

Joe Henry Rich, an officer with the Texas Highway Patrol, was the driver.

    "We turned off of Houston Street onto Elm Street and that was when I heard the first shot.
     I noticed a lot of confusion up ahead of me, motorcycle policemen and in the President's car
     and the President's security car. This Secret Service man in the front seat with me made the
     remark, "What the hell was that" and about that time I heard two more shots. There could
     have been more shots, but I could not say."

Clifton Carter, assistant to LBJ, was seated in the middle of the front seat.

    "At approximately 12:30 p.m., our car had just made the lefthand turn off Houston onto Elm
     Street and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building when I heard a
     noise which sounded like a firecracker. Special Agent Youngblood, who was seated on the
     righthand side of the front seat of Vice President Johnson's car immediately turned and pushed
     Vice President Johnson down and in the same motion vaulted over the seat and covered the
     Vice President with his body. At that instant Mrs. Johnson and Senator Yarborough, who were
     riding in the back seat along with the Vice President, bent forward. Special Agent Youngblood's
     action came immediately after the first shot and before the succeeding shots.

     I distinctly remember three shots. There was an interval of approximately 5 to 6 seconds from
     the first to the last shot, and the three shots were evenly spaced."

Jerry Kivett, SS agent and advance man, was seated on the left-side of the front seat.

    "The motorcade was heading slightly downhill toward an underpass. As the motorcade was
     approximately 1/3 of the way to the underpass, traveling between 10 and 15 miles per hour,
     I heard a loud noise--someone hollered "What was that?" It sounded more like an extremely
     large firecracker, in that it did not seem to have the sharp report of a rifle. As I was looking in
     the direction of the noise, which was to my right rear, I heard another report--then there was no
     doubt in my mind what was happening looked toward the Vice Presidential car, and as I did so,
     I could see the spectators, approximately 25-50, scattering--some were falling to the ground,
     some were running up a small hill, and some were just standing there stunned--here I heard
     the third shot."

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Re: First shot reactions
« Reply #179 on: August 16, 2019, 02:52:54 PM »

 

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