First shot reactions

[Jerry Organ]

What's the point of modeling Z-193 or Z-195 unless you think that's when the magic bullet transited?

Well, I'm not modeling the SBT until I've tested the model in dozens of ways. It may take years. I may help resolve some issues along the way.

Paul Ernst and Herrera, who helped with resources, have modeled the SBT. ( Link )

There may be other ways to model it, but Ernst is working with the latest software and high-end models.

[Andrew Mason]

You wrote:

    "So - without moving the men - let's see the views from above and
     from the side so we can check the angles.  There is no way that the
     line you have drawn goes from right to left at about 9 degrees and
     intersects JBC's right armpit."

No point in me posting any overhead view until this is sorted. Where are you getting 9 degrees?

We have had this discussion before. We are measuring the horizontal angle that a line from the SN through JFK's neck makes to the car direction. The horizontal angle  at z195 is 13 degrees to the car direction, which is what I was using.  The horizontal angle at z225 is between 9 and 10 degrees.  I was assuming you were using a shot at z225.

The HSCA for Z190 has a right-to-left trajectory of about 13 degrees; it doesn't back-project to the SN but nearly so. I'm modelling Z193 because it's the clearest Z-frame in that area. You're modelling, I guess, Z195.

I don't see how our lines are that different. Similar line-of-sights and the trajectory similarly goes right-to-left and downward.

Not so much reluctant as I need to do more work for an overhead view. Some limousine details, Connally's torso twist and maybe Kennedy's shoulder line raised. The limo details are essentially done but the rest is major. On my system, it takes about a minute for each move, rotate or scale. I had enough in place a while ago for Zapruder line-of-sight views.

There are other 3D items I work on as well, such as the Holland Theory, the Sniper's Nest precision build, Kennedy head/torso with bone structure, BYP recreation, Z171 recreation, Hickey's semi-standing position and so-on.

What you need to do is show us where you have placed JBC in a view from above.  Then, with the men in that same position we need to see a view as seen from Zapruder's position.  The trajectory of the shot has to go from the SN to JFK's back, out of his throat to nick the left side of his tie knot and strike JBC in the right armpit.  I have tried it at z195 and it can't be done.  I have tried it at z225 and it can't be done. But maybe I have made an error of some kind.   So I am curious as to how you have done it.

[Peter Kleinschmidt]

Define 'pristine'

The meaning is not needed the bullet never came in contact with Kennedy or Connelly Not my fault the bullets and yes the casings too also had a chain of possession issue. You now have nothing to argue about, what will you do with all of your extra time. Study Vince Foster's death?

[Jerry Organ]

We have had this discussion before. We are measuring the horizontal angle that a line from the SN through JFK's neck makes to the car direction. The horizontal angle  at z195 is 13 degrees to the car direction, which is what I was using.  The horizontal angle at z225 is between 9 and 10 degrees.

I get 11 degrees for Z225.

I was assuming you were using a shot at z225.

The 3D I was talking about concerns your Z195 first shot claim. And very little has changed from the above.

What you need to do is show us where you have placed JBC in a view from above.

On its way. But what possible use would you have for my work?

    "Mine are based on a full size model based on an accurate scale map of
     Dealey Plaza blown up to actual size and actual survey data.  I created
     a full-size model of the car using the H&E drawing and measurements
     and photographs.  I can then make all measurements on the model. 
     How do you determine angles and distances?"

Then, with the men in that same position we need to see a view as seen from Zapruder's position. 

It's not like I have the one limousine model on Elm Street. I have a limousine model with three figures in a "Group" labelled Z193 that I can hide when I need to show a different limousine model with figures elsewhere. Sometimes I duplicate a Dealey Plaza model with a few limo models for, say, the Holland Theory.

The trajectory of the shot has to go from the SN to JFK's back, out of his throat to nick the left side of his tie knot and strike JBC in the right armpit.  I have tried it at z195 and it can't be done.  I have tried it at z225 and it can't be done. But maybe I have made an error of some kind.   So I am curious as to how you have done it.

    "There was no space between JFK's hands in z224 either.  If the shot passed
      through him during frame z224, how do you suppose it missed his hands,
      wrists and forearms?  Someone should at least be able to demonstrate the
      trajectory from his neck to JBC's right armpit that misses his arms/hands. 
      So far as I can tell, no second-shot SBT proponent has done this."

You really need to get your eyes examined. Or try frame 223.

[Michael Walton]

The common misconception of what you see in the Z film is shots were fired there. They were not. Kennedy is simply fluffing his hair, looking around, bringing his arm down and then getting ready to wave to the women to the right of him because they yelled out.

Go to film and photos of the parade and you see this movement of him throughout. I could post here a hair fluffing photo, a sequence where he does the same, he's waving then leaning on the car, and so on. But I won't - look it up. It's not hard to find.

We have to give the conspirators a little bit of credit. They knew the oak tree was in the line of fire early on Elm. They knew that if they started firing away too early, it would have blown everything. The kill zone is pretty much exactly where you see it in the Z film - right as he reappears from the sign. This video goes into detail about it.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Hr9Lrku-Cxa3NqTEpScWNQZnc

I simply have never understood why people think there's shots fired earlier, sparks flying from the curb and other nonsense. It's pretty straightforward - the vast majority of ear witnesses said they heard 2 close together shots and then the head shot. The Z film backs this up.

'Night John Boy. 'Night Mary Ellen.

[Andrew Mason]

What's the point of modeling Z-193 or Z-195 unless you think that's when the magic bullet transited?

That is when the non-magic first bullet passed through JFK.  The reason for modelling it in 3D is to demonstrate where the bullet could have gone after exiting JFK. 

[Andrew Mason]

The common misconception of what you see in the Z film is shots were fired there. They were not. Kennedy is simply fluffing his hair, looking around, bringing his arm down and then getting ready to wave to the women to the right of him because they yelled out.

Go to film and photos of the parade and you see this movement of him throughout. I could post here a hair fluffing photo, a sequence where he does the same, he's waving then leaning on the car, and so on. But I won't - look it up. It's not hard to find.

We have to give the conspirators a little bit of credit. They knew the oak tree was in the line of fire early on Elm. They knew that if they started firing away too early, it would have blown everything. The kill zone is pretty much exactly where you see it in the Z film - right as he reappears from the sign. ...

I simply have never understood why people think there's shots fired earlier, sparks flying from the curb and other nonsense.

Except for the part about the 'conspirators' I generally agree.

It's pretty straightforward - the vast majority of ear witnesses said they heard 2 close together shots and then the head shot. The Z film backs this up.

No. And no, it doesn't.   The vast majority of witnesses said they heard a first loud noise and then a pause and then two shots in rapid succession, with a noticeably smaller interval between the last two than between the first and second.  Read their evidence..   The zfilm is perfectly consistent with this shot pattern.  Where everyone - CTs and most LNs - get it wrong is in the assumption that JBC is reacting to being hit in z230 -z272.  He is reacting, as he said, to having heard the first shot and fearing an assassination was unfolding.  He is hit in the back later - likely at z271-272 in my view - just before Greer turns around and just before he falls back onto Nellie, just as JBC and Nellie stated.

[Charles Collins]

Except for the part about the 'conspirators' I generally agree.
No. And no, it doesn't.   The vast majority of witnesses said they heard a first loud noise and then a pause and then two shots in rapid succession, with a noticeably smaller interval between the last two than between the first and second.  Read their evidence..   The zfilm is perfectly consistent with this shot pattern.  Where everyone - CTs and most LNs - get it wrong is in the assumption that JBC is reacting to being hit in z230 -z272.  He is reacting, as he said, to having heard the first shot and fearing an assassination was unfolding.  He is hit in the back later - likely at z271-272 in my view - just before Greer turns around and just before he falls back onto Nellie, just as JBC and Nellie stated.

He is hit in the back later - likely at z271-272 in my view - just before Greer turns around and just before he falls back onto Nellie, just as JBC and Nellie stated.

Given the position of JBC’s torso at that point in time, how do you propose that a bullet fired from the SE corner window of the sixth floor of the TSBD was able to enter his back near the right armpit and exit his chest just below his right nipple?