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Author Topic: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.  (Read 14512 times)

Offline Michael Walton

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Re: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2019, 12:11:22 PM »
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The difference between Tom Graves's Russian theory and the State Secret theory is this. SS is very close to home. In other words, we can track what exactly happened to Oswald from the time he false defected to Russia, all the way to 11/24 when he was murdered.

In addition, there are too many coincidences in Oswald's narrative for it to just be a run of the mill guy going on with his life and leading to what happens to him.

Meanwhile, Tom Graves never - EVER - rebuts SS and the reason for that is this - he can't. How can you rebut something when it's actually documented the way it is in SS and elsewhere?

Tom Graves, when you tell him that his Russia theory holds no water, falls back on his usual tropes. Did you read Bagley's book? Did you know Simpich agreed with me? Did you know Newman admitted something or other to me?

What Tom Graves does not understand is this - just because there was come collateral incident that took place, he lumps that together and uses it as "See? I'm right." It's not true. As an example, suppose on opposite ends of the street a Mom gives her kid candy and then on the other end a guy keels over and dies. In the center of this street is a tree. Just because that tree was there does NOT mean it had an impact on either of the events at opposite ends.

Another huge issue with Graves is he's highly biased in this case. He hates Russia, hates people who support the JFK case being an inside job. This is not xxxx stirring either - he actually admitted this on another thread in this forum. So in Tom's mind, his bias clouds his thought process with the JFK case. It's like the cop who hates prostitutes but has to investigate their murder grudgingly and with disdain. That prostitute is not going to get a fair shake.

I've read and seen plenty of true crime events to know that when an investigator comes in and for whatever reason doesn't "like" the victim, they're not going to get a fair investigation. The same with Tom Graves and this case. It's just gotta be Russia. I have even seen him lump Putin in here, not because Putin was involved [he was 10 years old in 1963], but because of the Russian vitriole.

State Secret is the closest thing we'll ever have to totally understand what happen with Oswald, how he was steered into the book building to take the fall for 11/22. He even admitted as much ("I didn't shoot anyone -- I'm a patsy").

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Re: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2019, 12:11:22 PM »


Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2019, 04:20:54 PM »
Note: The original title of this thread, before Thomas edited it, was: Re: Standing Challenge To Michael Clark (Or Anyone Else Who Wants To Give It A Shot)

The difference between Tom Graves's Russian theory and the State Secret theory is ....
........
State Secret is the closest thing we'll ever have to totally understand what happen with Oswald, how he was steered into the book building to take the fall for 11/22. He even admitted as much ("I didn't shoot anyone -- I'm a patsy").

I agree with you, generally, about Thomas. But I have not read enough to comment on the specifics that you have presented.

What kind of gets missed, though, is that Heuer confirms that there once was a prevailing theory in intelligence circles to which Thomas is a latter-day adherent.

There was a “Master Plot” theory, which was subsequently derided as the “Monster Plot” (like, monsters living under your bed). To use modern, millennial parlance, it is, or was, “a thing”.

Unfortunately, for Thomas, so were The Beach Boys, and his ascribtion to this theory is akin to him running around and loudly letting people know that The Beach Boys ARE the greatest thing since sliced bread.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 06:00:56 PM by Michael Clark »

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2019, 07:45:40 PM »
Note: The original title of this thread, before Thomas edited it, was: Re: Standing Challenge To Michael Clark (Or Anyone Else Who Wants To Give It A Shot)

I agree with you, generally, about Thomas. But I have not read enough to comment on the specifics that you have presented.

What kind of gets missed, though, is that Heuer confirms that there once was a prevailing theory in intelligence circles to which Thomas is a latter-day adherent.

There was a “Master Plot” theory, which was subsequently derided as the “Monster Plot” (like, monsters living under your bed). To use modern, millennial parlance, it is, or was, “a thing”.

Unfortunately, for Thomas, so were The Beach Boys, and his ascribtion to this theory is akin to him running around and loudly letting people know that The Beach Boys ARE the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Anecdote:  I learned how to surf a couple of days before The Beach Boy's first hit single, Surfin' Safari, was released in June 1962, and three months before their album by the same title was released, so I can say in all honesty that that totally "As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.'en" band didn't have anything to do with my initial "stoke," which endorphin "high" was achieved on my very first "paddle-out" on the south side of Scripps Pier on Creighton Robinson's 9-0 Al Nelson "gun".

I guess that make me OG, surfin'-wise.

It's ironic, though, that I, after falling in love with their songs Surfin' Safari and 409, etc, eventually (in the Fall of 1967) fell in love with the music of Jimi Hendrix, who sang the immortal words, "So to you I shall put an end, and you'll never hear surf music again" (in his 1966 song, Third Stone From The Sun) when I heard Purple Haze blaring over and over again from a dorm window one day during homecoming week at TCU (where the school colors are purple and white, and, iirc, we beat Texas Tech on a long 4th quarter touchdown pass from quarterback P. D. Shabay to a wide-open-way-down-the-field Bill Ferguson), and that in 1999 I would, on a regular basis, sing "Hey Joe" for a band called "Traffic Jam" at now-gone Molly's Irish Pub in the now-gone Hotel Avion Building on Ceska Street ... in Brno, Czech Republic.

Point being, you chose a bad analogy, Michael.

--  WMT   ;)

PS  Heuer's Five Paths to Judgement was published in 1987, whereas Bagley's Spy Wars (have you read it, yet?) was not only published twenty years later, but it point-by-point demolishes, with verifiable evidence, Heuer's thesis and conclusions.

As they say, You can lead a horse to water ...

https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames

« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 02:37:37 AM by Thomas Graves »

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Re: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2019, 07:45:40 PM »


Offline Steve Logan

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Re: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2019, 05:17:50 PM »
Anecdote:  I learned how to surf a couple of days before The Beach Boy's first hit single, Surfin' Safari, was released in June 1962, and three months before their album by the same title was released, so I can say in all honesty that that totally "As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.'en" band didn't have anything to do with my initial "stoke," which endorphin "high" was achieved on my very first "paddle-out" on the south side of Scripps Pier on Creighton Robinson's 9-0 Al Nelson "gun".

I guess that make me OG, surfin'-wise.

It's ironic, though, that I, after falling in love with their songs Surfin' Safari and 409, etc, eventually (in the Fall of 1967) fell in love with the music of Jimi Hendrix, who sang the immortal words, "So to you I shall put an end, and you'll never hear surf music again" (in his 1966 song, Third Stone From The Sun) when I heard Purple Haze blaring over and over again from a dorm window one day during homecoming week at TCU (where the school colors are purple and white, and, iirc, we beat Texas Tech on a long 4th quarter touchdown pass from quarterback P. D. Shabay to a wide-open-way-down-the-field Bill Ferguson), and that in 1999 I would, on a regular basis, sing "Hey Joe" for a band called "Traffic Jam" at now-gone Molly's Irish Pub in the now-gone Hotel Avion Building on Ceska Street ... in Brno, Czech Republic.



Whoa, so hardcore.

Little surfer little one
Made my heart come all undone
Do you love me, do you surfer girl
Surfer girl my little surfer girl
I have watched you on the shore
Standing by the ocean's roar
Do you love me do you surfer girl
Surfer girl surfer girl
We could ride the surf together
While our love would grow
In my Woody I would take you everywhere I go
So I say from me to you
I will make your dreams come true
Do you love me do you surfer girl
Surfer girl my little surfer girl
Well
Girl surfer girl my little surfer girl
Well
Girl surfer girl my little surfer girl
Well
Girl surfer girl my little surfer girl

 :D

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2019, 08:02:27 PM »


Whoa, so hardcore.

(...)




Logan,

I never liked that one, actually, nor

Sher-ry, Sher-err-err-errrr-reeee-bay-yay-beee, Sher-re-bay-bee! by Frankenstein and the Four Horsemen.


Seems like your cup of tea, though.  The hardcore falsetto, and everythang ...

--  MWT  ;)

« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 08:18:03 PM by Thomas Graves »

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Re: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2019, 08:02:27 PM »


Offline Steve Logan

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Re: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2019, 08:40:43 PM »
Logan,

I never liked that one, actually, nor

Sher-ry, Sher-err-err-errrr-reeee-bay-yay-beee, Sher-re-bay-bee! by Frankenstein and the Four Horsemen.


Seems like your cup of tea, though.  The hardcore falsetto, and everythang ...

--  MWT  ;)

Too much New Jersey and eye-talian for my tastes.

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2019, 09:02:26 PM »
Too much New Jersey and eye-talian for my tastes.

We finally agree on something.

--  MWT  ;)

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Re: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2019, 09:02:26 PM »


Offline Steve Logan

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Re: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2019, 12:07:20 AM »
We finally agree on something.

--  MWT  ;)

Gee, thanks Moondoggie.