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Author Topic: The Fallacies of Howard J. Osborn and Richards J. Heuer, et al.  (Read 2457 times)

Online Ray Mitcham

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Yeah, well how about 'talking about it' via PM, Facebook, somewhere...anywhere else!! This waste of forum space is boring the pants off the rest of us.

Denis, it's not very often I agree with you but on this occasion I do.

Offline Michael Clark

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Note: The original title of this thread, before Thomas edited it, was: Re: Standing Challenge To Michael Clark (Or Anyone Else Who Wants To Give It A Shot)

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Denis, it's not very often I agree with you but on this occasion I do.

Well, Thomas took a perfectly good document, which was readable and could have been left as a link, and posted it here, Gaalified it, making it unreadable.

I took a basically unreadable document and made it readable. I didnít have much choice about posting it because it only exisxts here in a readable form.

So, honestly, some measure of Thanks is in order, I think. Heuerís book is an interesting read about dealing with moles, even if you are not interested in the Nosenko case. Additionally, I am providing some counterpunch to Thomasís never ending blather about some great KGB plot that still attacks us today; which brings me to my last point..

This whole fantasy that Thomas has been preaching about for years is actually a thing. It is not a thing so much in that it is real, but inasmuch as it describes a very real paranoid delusion that there was a great overarching, longitudinal plot by the Soviets to undermine the West. This is what Thomas has been rambling about, but he never calls it by its name because it sounds so ridiculous. Heurer, the author of the piece that I posted, believed in it as well, but he came to his senses. Thomas dove into it decades after the rest of these guys died or came to their senses.

Itís good to know where Thomas is coming from, even if it just makes his worldview look more ridiculous, at least he has company.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 04:07:24 PM by Michael Clark »

Online Thomas Graves

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.....


Dear Michael,

"Unreadable"?

That's your excuse?

LOL

I've since gone back and made it more accessible for you.

Cheers!

-- MWT   :(
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 12:45:56 PM by Thomas Graves »

Online Thomas Graves

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Dear Michael,

Are you going to send a letter to Peter Dale Scott, telling him that "sadistic incompetent" Tennent H. Bagley was wrong, wrong, wrong about Nosenko, and that John Newman was a fool to believe him?

To believe Bagley, that is?

-- MWT   ;)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 12:48:32 PM by Thomas Graves »

Online Thomas Graves

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Dear Michael,

Regarding the Heuer essay that you've evidently fallen in love with, aren't you glad I turned you onto it?

So it can reinforce all of your misconceptions about Nosenko (the guy who said KGB had absolutely nothing to do with Oswald and, more importantly, that there were no KGB/GRU moles in U.S. Intelligence), and about all of the KGB and GRU officers (whom you've probably never heard of, anyway) who were sent here as triple-agents so that they could, one way or another, build up Nosenko's "bona fides" in the eyes of The Gullibles Or Worse (Hoover, McCoy, Hart, Solie, Kisevalter, et al.) at the FBI and CIA so he could more effectively detract from true defector Anatoly Golitsyn and the leads he was giving Bagley and Angleton about moles in the CIA (and in the governments and security services of some of our allies -- France in particular)?

You're welcome, Michael, but please do try to get around to reading that "unreadable" Spy Wars some day, won't you?

After all, John Newman did.  Thank God.

-- MWT  ;)


PS  Here's a little tid-bit (plus annotations referenced therein) for you from page 282, in the Glossary (Appendix D):


Kochnov, Igor

KGB officer who [on a Sunday morning called Richard Helms "out-of-the-blue" at home and] volunteered to work for CIA while on a temporary mission to Washington in June 1966. To promote his KGB career, CIA and FBI allowed him to "recruit" his [witting] target, Nikolay Artamonov*.  His prospects to rise in the KGB disappeared, as indeed so did he a couple of years later.  He uncovered no spies who were arrested, but told CIA that his other KGB assignment was to locate [and assassinate, if possible] the important defectors Yuri Golitsyn* and Yuri Nosenko*. This convinced some in CIA, including Bruce Solie* [one of Kochnov's "handlers"] that Nosenko was genuine.


*Artamonov, Nikolay Fedorovich

Soviet naval officer (destroyer captain) who defected in the 1950s and moved to the United States where (under the assumed name of Nicholas Shadrin) he worked as a consultant for the U.S. navy.  Agreed to work as a double agent for the Americans and thus allowed himself to be "recruited" by KGB officer Igor Kochnov*. In the course of the operation [run jointly by CIA's Office of Security and FBI because Angleton feared KGB penetration of the Soviet Block Division) kidnapped him [in Vienna, under the nose of Solie*] and inadvertently killed him [allegedly by giving him too much of a "knockout" drug while smuggling him across the border].


*Golitsyn, Anatoly

KGB officer who was stationed in Austria 1953 - 1955 and defected to the CIA in Helsinki on 15 December 1961 years of memorizing cases and documents that had come to his attention.  His pointers exposed active KGB spies in several Western governments, including three intelligence services.


*Nosenko, Yuri Ivanocich

KGB officer who approached CIA in Geneva at the end of 1962 and gave information over the course of a few [five] meetings [to Bagley and flown-in fluent-in-Russian "super handler" George Kisevalter] before his visiting [Disarmament] delegation returned to Moscow. Came back to Geneva in late January 1964 and defected six days after several more meetings with CIA. His good faith came under suspicion but CIA later certified him as a genuine defector. He has since resided in the United States [he died on 8/23/08].


*Solie, Bruce

CIA security officer who worked on personnel security matters. Was assigned as a case officer for Igor Kochnov* in 1966 and came to believe Yuri Nosenko* was a genuine defector. Criticized the 1967 [condensed-down-to-450-pages from the "thousand pager" written by Bagley] report by CIA's Soviet Block Division and then spent months devising a new story with Nosenko. Solie wrote a report that, by 1 October 1968, finally cleared away CIA official doubts about Nosenko's bona fides.[emphasis added 3x]
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 09:20:32 PM by Thomas Graves »

Online Thomas Graves

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Dear Michael,

Are you going to send a letter to Peter Dale Scott, telling him that that "sadistic incompetent" Tennent H. Bagley was wrong, wrong, wrong about Nosenko, and that John Newman was a fool to believe him?

To believe Bagley, that is?

-- MWT   ;)

Edit: I've just now noticed that the very last thing Scott tells Newman in the (March 3, 2018 -- Part II) video is that Newman (i.e., Bagley) has just now convinced him that Nosenko was dispatched to the U.S. to discredit Golitsyn.

Comments, anyone?

-- MWT  ;)


Check it out at 41:32

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« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 01:35:45 AM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Michael Clark

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Note: The original title of this thread, before Thomas edited it, was: Re: Standing Challenge To Michael Clark (Or Anyone Else Who Wants To Give It A Shot)

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Edit: I've just now noticed that the very last thing Scott tells Newman in the (March 3, 2018 -- Part II) video is that Newman (i.e., Bagley) has just now convinced him that Nosenko was dispatched to the U.S. to discredit Golitsyn.

Comments, anyone?

-- MWT  ;)

Thomas, are you going to warn Peter Dale Scott, or Newman (since no one is free from your pernicious and capricious opinions and respect), that you will label them as liars, fools, brainwashed, commies, traitors and idiots, .. if they happen to disagree with you on some matter?

Thomas, do you think that anyone would engage you in this debate, given your borderline propensities?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 04:08:24 PM by Michael Clark »

Online Thomas Graves

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Thomas, are you going to warn Peter Dale Scott, or Newman (since no one is free from your pernicious and capricious opinions and respect), that you will label them as liars, fools, brainwashed, commies, traitors and idiots, .. if they happen to disagree with you on some matter?

Thomas, do you think that anyone would engage you in this debate, given your borderline propensities?

Dear Michael,

Are you totally "bummed out" that "Pete" Bagley's books convinced John Newman that Yuri Nosenko was a false defector, and that he, in turn, has convinced Peter Dale Scott of same?

It must be quite traumatic for you!

(Nice deflection, btw.)

-- MWT   :(
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 03:40:09 AM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Michael Clark

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Dear Michael,

Are you totally "bummed out" that "Pete" Bagley's books convinced John Newman that Yuri Nosenko was a false defector, and that he, in turn, has convinced Peter Dale Scott of same?

It must be quite traumatic for you!

(Nice deflection, btw.)

-- MWT   :(

Tommy, following up on my previous question...., have you noticed how much interest there is in your questions and posts? Would you accept a hint if I told you that it rhymes with Zero?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 04:09:18 PM by Michael Clark »

Online Thomas Graves

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Tommy, following up on my previous question...., have you noticed how much interest there is in your questions and posts? Would you accept a hint if I told you that it rhymes with Zero?

Michael,

Then why do you keep posting "responses" on this and my other anti-Nosenko/pro-Bagley threads?

Two questions for you, Michael:

1)  Are you "bummed" that both John Newman and Peter Dale Scott now believe Yuri Nosenko was a false defector, sent here by the KGB to discredit Anatoly Golitsyn?

2)  Can you think of any person Nosenko helped the FBI or CIA to "uncover" who: 1) wasn't already under suspicion, 2) was still working for the KGB/GRU, or 3) still had access to classified materials?

Can't you name any names, Michael?

What do your beloved sources like John L. Hart, Howard J. Osborn, Leonard McCoy, Bruce Solie and Richards J. Heuer, Jr., say? Do they mention any specific  names?  How about Tommy Mangold or Jefferson "Intellectually Dishonest" Morley?  James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio?  Can they help you out with this? 

If so, please share those names with us so that I (with help from Spy Wars, etc) can enlighten you about them.

-- MWT  ;)

Btw: 21 23 24 people, in addition to you and me, are currently reading this thread. Not bad for an "Off Topic" thread at the JFK Assassination Forum, huh?

« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 03:33:31 PM by Thomas Graves »

 

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