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Author Topic: Where Were Jane Berry, Betty Thornton and Peggy Burney During the Motorcade?  (Read 6278 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

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Everybody's fallible - even you (though you'll never admit it).

I've answered your questions repeatedly, you just don't like the answers.  Which is why it's futile to engage in your broken record shtick.

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Online Thomas Graves

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Thomas, worth noting is that KarenWestbrook identified a PersonImage as herself, about a half century after the DealeyPlaza shooting of JohnKennedySr and JohnConnallyJr, based on the SixthFloorMuseum filmed interview, by viewing films and/or photos of PersonImages. And, her Motorcade viewing companions' PersonImages were identified by herself the same way, but placed with her Image accordingly. To my knowledge, there is no video or audio Of Ms Westbrook  providing any similar PersonImage identity information that was produced on 11/22/'63. And, to me at least, that would tend to dilute any "being there" valuation.

Jack LARRY,

Not sure what your point is ...

(We know that Westbrook was there, just not right there.)

-- MWT  ;)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 11:39:39 PM by Thomas Graves »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Thomas, worth noting is that KarenWestbrook identified a PersonImage as herself, about a half century after the DealeyPlaza shooting of JohnKennedySr and JohnConnallyJr, based on the SixthFloorMuseum filmed interview, by viewing films and/or photos of PersonImages. And, her Motorcade viewing companions' PersonImages were identified by herself the same way, but placed with her Image accordingly. To my knowledge, there is no video or audio Of Ms Westbrook  providing any similar PersonImage identity information that was produced on 11/22/'63. And, to me at least, that would tend to dilute any "being there" valuation.

"Diluted" as much a guy squinting at the backs of people's heads in a film about a half century later?

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Online Thomas Graves

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Everybody's fallible - even you (though you'll never admit it).

I've answered your questions repeatedly, you just don't like the answers.  Which is why it's futile to engage in your broken record shtick.

Dear Iacoletti,

Nope.

All you've done (for the most part) is come up with implausible assertions, objections and denials.

Examples:

1)  The black-blouse and black headscarf-wearing gal in Betzner-3 seems at first glance to be wearing glasses, but upon enlarging her face one can see that it's just a shadow, or a tree branch.

2)  The gal on the left near the Stemmons sign in Zapruder-frame 60 (and the frames around it) only appears to have a dark complexion, due to over-saturation in the Costella Combined Edit Frames, despite the fact that at least three other spectators in said frames - Unger's and Roberdeau's  "Maggie Brown, John Templin, and Ernest Brandt" - clearly have significantly lighter skin in it.

3)  The three people on the Pergola Patio in the Towner clip aren't women, but men who are wearing very long bermuda shorts with long-sleeved upper garments in late November, or very high, flesh-colored cowboy boots.

4)  The medium-blue thing (which is the same color as the headscarf "Karen Westbrook" is wearing) on or near the head of the person on the right in said Pergola Patio trio doesn't have to be a headscarf, it could very well be could be a balloon, or an umbrella, or a ......

5)  It's reasonable to assume that although all of the seven gals in the two groups at issue (the Jacob, Holt and Simmons group, and the Calvery, Hicks, Reed and Westbrook group) told the FBI that they had walked with two (or three) of their colleagues to a general area down Elm Street to watch the motorcade, some of them did not stand sufficiently near other members of their group to be caught on film while watching the motorcade.

6) It's reasonable to assume that one of these two groups (the trio comprised of self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob and her colleagues, strawberry-blonde Gloria Holt and Sharron Simmons) is not visible in any of the photos or films taken that day.

7)  It's reasonable to assume that the spectators in two particular groups did not actually stay in their respective group during the motorcade, but mingled with members of the other group.

8 )  It's reasonable to assume that there were two gals wearing black-blouses, black headscarves and mid-toned skirts watching the motorcade, and that there were two gals dressed in white dresses and white headscarves watching the motorcade, and that they formed two black-white couples, but only one of these black-white couples was "caught" on Elm Street during the motorcade by Zapruder, as it was standing about a 20-second walk from the TSBD steps, and the other black-white couple was not caught in the Zapruder film during the motorcade, but was caught by Darnell about 20 seconds after the assassination, on the lower steps of the TSBD as they are evidently returning to that building, and it's just a coincidence that the first black-white couple is nowhere to be seen in any of the photos or films at this time (about 20 seconds after the assassination or at any other time after that.

9)  etc


--  MWT   :D

« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 10:30:32 AM by Thomas Graves »

Online Thomas Graves

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Well Mr Graves, my name is not Jack, and have been called much worse, but apparently the point was missed, and I will withdraw the post.

Sorry about that, Larry.

I must have been thinking of Jumpin' Jack Flash, or maybe the U.S. Army code clerk the Ruskies recruited in 1949 and code named "Jack" (who not only was never uncovered, but inadvertently caused the Korean War).

My bad.

Your comrade-in-arms,

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy   ;)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 11:40:25 PM by Thomas Graves »

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Offline John Iacoletti

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You know what I'm not seeing in your latest ridiculous list of strawman claims that I never made?

Any evidence that the person who Karen Westbrook identified as herself is actually Sharon Simmons.

Online Thomas Graves

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You know what I'm not seeing in your latest ridiculous list of strawman claims that I never made?

Any evidence that the person who Karen Westbrook identified as herself is actually Sharon Simmons.

Dear Iacoletti,

Strawman claims you've never made?

LOL

What are you talking about?

You've said or strongly suggested every single one of those things on this forum.

Sharron Simmons?

Why have you waited so long to bring her up?  Are you hoping she'll be your "ace in the hole" now that you've gone "all in"?

Are you suggesting that since she hasn't come forward and identified herself in the photographs, that it couldn't be her wearing the blue headscarf near the Stemmons sign?

Maybe she values her privacy, or doesn't want to get involved.  Had you thought of that?

Haven't you seen the photos of her that have been posted on the Internet?

Go to page five of Sandy Larsen's EF thread Did Shelley and Lovelady Leave the TSBD Steps Before Officer Baker's Arrival and then Return?, and on page 10 of my thread, Were TSBD Employees Jacob, Holt and Simmons Misidentified as Calvery, Hicks and Reed? and see for yourself the resemblance between Sharon Simmons and the headscarf-wearing gal in the short Darnell clips.


--  MWT   ;)


 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 03:46:38 AM by Thomas Graves »

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Online Thomas Graves

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Dear Iacoletti,

Nope.

All you've done (for the most part) is come up with implausible assertions, objections and denials.

Examples:

1)  The black-blouse and black headscarf-wearing gal in Betzner-3 seems at first glance to be wearing glasses, but upon enlarging her face one can see that it's just a shadow, or a tree branch.


2)  The gal on the left near the Stemmons sign in Zapruder-frame 60 (and the frames around it) only appears to have a dark complexion, due to over-saturation in the Costella Combined Edit Frames, despite the fact that at least three other spectators in said frames - Unger's and Roberdeau's  "Maggie Brown, John Templin, and Ernest Brandt" - clearly have significantly lighter skin than her.

3)  The three people on the Pergola Patio in the Towner clip aren't women, but men who are wearing very long bermuda shorts with long-sleeved upper garments in late November, or very high, flesh-colored cowboy boots.

4)  The medium-blue thing (which is the same color as the headscarf "Karen Westbrook" is wearing) on or near the head of the person on the right in said Pergola Patio trio doesn't have to be a headscarf, it could very well be could be a balloon, or an umbrella, or a ......

5)  It's reasonable to assume that some assassination witnesses in two groups who told the FBI that they walked with two (or three) of their colleagues to a spot "about 50 yards down down Elm Street" / to a spot "about halfway between the TSBD and the Triple Underpass" to watch the motorcade did not stand sufficiently near the other members of their respective groups to be caught on any film, period, while watching it.

6) It's reasonable that one of these two groups (the trio comprised of self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob and her colleagues, strawberry-blonde Gloria Holt and Sharron Simmons) is not visible in any of the photos or films taken that day.

7)  It's reasonable to assume that the spectators in two particular groups did not actually stay in their respective group during the motorcade, but mingled with members of the other group.

8 )  It's reasonable to assume that there were two gals wearing black-blouses, black headscarves and mid-toned skirts watching the motorcade, and that there were two gals dressed in white dresses and white headscarves watching the motorcade, and that they formed two black-white couples, but only one of these black-white couples was "caught" on Elm Street during the motorcade by Zapruder, as it was standing about a 20-second walk from the TSBD steps, and the other black-white couple was not caught in the Zapruder film during the motorcade, but was caught by Darnell about 20 seconds after the assassination, on the lower steps of the TSBD as they are evidently returning to that building, and it's just a coincidence that the first black-white couple is nowhere to be seen in any of the photos or films at this time (about 20 seconds after the assassination), or at any other time after that.

9)  etc


--  MWT   :D


Edited and bumped for John Iacoletti.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 06:19:03 AM by Thomas Graves »

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Offline John Iacoletti

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You've said or strongly suggested every single one of those things on this forum.

 BS:

Those are all things you invented to avoid arguing honestly.  I haven't claimed any of those things.  I merely pointed out that your arguments rely on a lot of unwarranted assumptions.

Quote
Are you suggesting that since she hasn't come forward and identified herself in the photographs, that it couldn't be her wearing the blue headscarf near the Stemmons sign?

No, I'm suggesting that you done exactly nothing to show this is Simmons rather than Westbrook.  All you've done is arrogantly pronounce Westbrook wrong and yourself right.

Quote
Maybe she values her privacy, or doesn't want to get involved.  Had you thought of that?

Is this supposed to be evidence that it's her?

Quote
Haven't you seen the photos of her that have been posted on the Internet?

Go to page five of Sandy Larsen's EF thread Did Shelley and Lovelady Leave the TSBD Steps Before Officer Baker's Arrival and then Return?, and on page 10 of my thread, Were TSBD Employees Jacob, Holt and Simmons Misidentified as Calvery, Hicks and Reed? and see for yourself the resemblance between Sharon Simmons and the headscarf-wearing gal in the short Darnell clips.

LOL.  For the millionth time (this is why this is futile), the Darnell clip tells you nothing about who is who in Zapruder.  But I don't believe that the girl with the big safety pin on her collar is the right Sharon Simmons anyway.  She's the wrong age, unless she was a prodigy who graduated high school at 16.  I found a way more likely candidate at a different school.  Your confirmation bias though would cause you to see a resemblance anyway, regardless.  You are notorious for seeing what you want to see.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 06:16:07 AM by John Iacoletti »

Online Thomas Graves

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[.....]


Iacoletti,

Have you posted, anywhere, your "way more likely candidate" for Simmons?

I'd love to see it.

-- MWT  ;)

PS  Your continued denying that the Townner clip captured, on the Pergola Patio, the same three gals that Darnell captured, and that they, in turn, are the same three gals that are standing near the Stemmons sign in Zaruder is, well, mind-numbing, imho.

Correlations between the three gals in Zapruder and the three gals (you do agree they're females, don't you?) in the Towner clip:

1) The one on the left in both has very dark hair and is wearing a white skirt and a dark-brown, long-sleeved upper garment.

2) The one in the middle in both has light-colored hair and is wearing a dark-colored long-sleeved dress or raincoat.

3) The one on the right is wearing a light-blue headscarf and a dark-colored long-sleeved dress or raincoat.

(Fwiw, none of them appear to be particularly short, or particularly tall, or particularly thin, or particularly obese.)

Correlations between the three gals near the Stemmons sign in Zapruder-frame 60 and the three gals in the two short Darnell clips:

1) The one on the left in both has back hair, is dark-complected, and is wearing a dark-colored coat.

2) The one in the middle has light-colored hair and is wearing a dark-colored upper garment.

3) The one on the right in both is wearing a headscarf -- light-toned in the b&w Darnell clips, consistent with the light-blue one the gal on the right is wearing in Zapruder. Also, she is wearing a dark-colored rain jacket in both.

.....

PPS  What, exactly, have I "invented" so that I can "argue dishonestly"?

You don't remember saying or implying those things?

Your insinuating that I'm dishonest is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle "black," dude.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 09:19:09 AM by Thomas Graves »

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